The Journey of Understanding Neurodivergence

Paula has coached more than 300 clients specializing late diagnosed autistic women and neurodivergent leaders. She is currently completing her doctoral research exploring unmasking, identity, and authentic leadership in late diagnosed women. Paula, welcome to the Inclusive Shift.

Paula Jones (00:43)

Thank very much for having me here, Nic. It's great to be here. yeah, as you said, my work sits at the intersection of autism and women in the workplace. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

Nic (00:56)

Wonderful, thank you for coming on. Paula I'd love to jump in and get a little bit more about understanding of yourself and how you personally describe your neurodivergence and how your understanding of that has evolved over time.

Paula Jones (01:08)

Okey

dokey, well I'm an old lady now, I'm 55. I was diagnosed at 46. After realising for a long time that I was at least autistic, and it hit me like a ton of bricks after reading a lot of descriptions of what autism was online, it took me long time to get diagnosed because it's not an easy process. It's one of the only...

conditions where you have to have your mother present and references from your dead grandparents. But I've described my neurodivergence as autistic with ADHD traits layered through it. And my husband's also AuDHD AuDHD, AuDHD but I'd say his ADHD is more prevalent with autism, more in the background.

And I'd say it's not a deficit story, but more of a sensory and cognitive operating system. And it's always been there, obviously, since I was a child where being in the shower made me scream and other people made me hide. Diagnosis didn't give me any new traits, but it gave me a new language. So over time, my understanding has shifted from

Why am I failing at things that seem really easy for everybody else? my nervous system was never built for the environments I've been forced to survive in. So it's less about self-discovery and more about relief. It's like coming home, you know, so I'm not a failed neurotypical. I'm actually quite a successful autistic person.

And I think all of the things I've actually really achieved in my life have been since my autism diagnosis because they've given me the push that I needed to really believe, okay, there's actually nothing really wrong with me despite the fact that I've got challenges and I can do the things that I want to do. And it's...

A lot of it is, although this is controversial in a lot of circumstances, a lot of it is environmental that holds me back. if I can work with myself and lean into my diagnosis, then I can do a lot more than I believed I could. So I hope that makes

Nic (03:33)

Yeah,

Paula Jones (03:34)

sense.

Nic (03:34)

that definitely ah makes sense to me. I 100 % agree that it's environmental.

put me in a quiet space and I'm quite comfortable and I can thrive, put me in a loud environment, and I can't focus properly and it elevates my be it sensitivity and it

Paula Jones (03:53)

Mm-hmm.

Nic (03:54)

really becomes a distraction.

Paula Jones (03:56)

Totally

agree. And for those that say that the autism is not affected by environment and you're not disabled by society in any way, I'm also a wheelchair user and I'm absolutely disabled by society as a wheelchair user. So there is no way that that...

doesn't translate across to neurodivergence. Absolutely no way I experience it both physically and as a neurodivergent person. So, you know, both sides of that coin, I can guarantee it's the truth.

Nic (04:32)

No, thank you for sharing. So what led you into the fields of positive psychology and AuDHD coaching? Was there a moment where your personal experience and professional direction intersected?

Paula Jones (04:42)

I think it was post diagnosis and I'd spent years being the person in organisations where I could hold down a job because that's the key is holding down a job. But when I was, I was the person that was fixing everything. So I was understanding systems faster than everyone else and then quietly being punished for not being the socially standard one. And

I've only held down two long-term jobs in my entire life. And the longest one that I can think of, I was an IT trainer in an organization and I would pick the systems up really quickly, but get held back from teaching higher levels and other people would be putting it for them.

quicker than I was and I threatened to leave. I was an applications trainer, computer applications trainer. I threatened to leave because I was so bored unless they allowed me to do systems training, which they did, but at an applications trainer wages, which was completely unfair, but I still did it because I was so bored.

and I burned out really hard. So that job I was made redundant from and I went into freelance training. And I morphed from a trainer into a coach. I thought I'll pick up coaching instead because I think this is more me, more my thing. So I went into coaching and it really suited me. So I got qualified as a coach.

And after the pandemic, I discovered positive psychology coaching. And something about it just really gelled with me. If we looked at people and actually asked questions about how much it takes for people to be happy and

to thrive and be self-determined and to be able to build on what we've already got. That's a much better approach than standard coaching and the GROW model and expecting people to have all the answers inside them. That's the standard coaching thing. You already have all the answers.

I'm just here to facilitate. So it's kind of more of a mentoring model than just a simple coaching model. And it arrived with that. That master's degree changed my life because although positive psychology is a very neuro normative model, I realized it could be adapted for neurodivergent brains.

so that it's not, okay, you've got all the answers. It's here's a structure, a system, we thrive on systems and we can build on these systems and we can take them apart, twist them around and put them back together in a way that serves us and build on this in a way that works for us that could also work really well for

neurodiversity training in the workplace that would actually just work. you know, it's straightforward, it's really simple and it takes no effort whatsoever. It would be so low cost to do, but also so simple for people to do for themselves. And it was just...

I

found that autistic women were finding me before I ever marketed myself. I put up a couple of posts on LinkedIn that just said what I was thinking. women were private messaging me and saying, are you in my house?

They could feel I wasn't trying to make them normal or trying to change them.

I'm helping them reclaim themselves, you know, just come home to themselves. And that's what it's about. It's about just be you. You know, and not in that, oh, not like that way, but be you. Question yourself. Do some, it's called appreciative inquiry on yourself. What do you need to make yourself feel safe, psychologically safe?

appreciated at home, not necessarily fitting in but fitting into your slot in your body and your brain in this place. What does that feel like? What does it look like? What does it sound like? And building up an entire experience around that.

Nic (09:12)

To me it's like, you need to be your authentic self taking away that mask but at the same time, you know, you need to try and avoid people saying, no, no, that's too much of you. Let's wind it back a bit.

I guess my overall goal would be, you know, have the opportunity for everybody to bring their whole authentic selves into our workplace. And yes, people might get offended. Yes, people might feel as though you're attacking them when you're not. You're just telling them the blunt, honest truth because that's how your brain works.

But...

At the same time, you're taking a lot of stress and lot of anxiety off your shoulders by being able to be yourself in the workplace.

Paula Jones (09:54)

Yeah, and I think a lot of it comes down to being able to say this method of communication is clarity. And if I say I need this or I am asking for what I need, I'm saying this in this way and being open and honest about it, you're saying

I'm not being rude, I'm not being, you know, just because the edge is knocked off. I'm not being rude, I'm being clear, I'm saying exactly what it is that I need to be able to perform my function within this role. It's just pure honesty. And if people can't get behind being honest, then...

That's a them problem, not an us problem. And

Nic (10:39)

I agree.

Paula Jones (10:43)

I think that's so important to state openly. This is my communication style, it doesn't mean I hate you.

Nic (10:53)

Absolutely

Paula Jones (10:54)

And I actually think most NT people who don't, by the way, go around thinking, I'm neurotypical. Most NT people do actually understand that. It's what I call the norm core hoard who don't think in that way. You know, the ones who don't want to understand, who don't want to listen.

who think autism is a trend and all of that and everybody's a little bit autistic. They're the ones that don't want to understand that, who want to think we're rude. Everybody else just thinks we're people.

just like

neurotypicals of people.

Nic (11:26)

Yes, absolutely. I guess the other thing that people need to realize as well, and not to kind of...

over hype being autistic. there's studies, think one's come out from JP Morgan and there's another one that says that autistic people are 140 % more efficient in their job every single day, opposed to those that are neuro-typical. So, you know, it's worth having those people or neurodivergent individuals in your team because they're going to perform and they're going to perform well.

Paula Jones (11:56)

Yeah, absolutely. The only problem with that is that it costs us because we're not doing the water cooler chat. That's what makes us more efficient because we can't do small talk or we will do the, you know, hi, how are you? Fine. And that's what makes us seem blunt and unapproachable.

But all we've done is answer a question with how we feel rather than rattle off a script that we're supposed to know that we didn't get the handbook for. So we've had to maybe learn small talk rules, but it is meaningless. Nobody expects an answer really to that question. They don't care about the answer.

And they know they don't care about the answer, but because we haven't given the answer that they don't care about, we're rude. So if everybody analyzed small talk, everybody, neurotypical, neurodivergent, if they actually sat and analyzed this and thought about it, they'd realize, well, we don't care anyway. We didn't really want the answer. So why does it matter?

Nic (13:00)

So very true. Paula I'd love to jump back into your workplace experience there. You obviously mentioned that you're being a qualified person within your organization and you were passed over for opportunities and promotions.

What did that experience look like in practice for you?

Paula Jones (13:18)

pattern recognition. So there'd be a pattern of me fixing the problems, writing the documentation, training other people, and then the promotion would go to the easiest person in the room. Because I know I'm not easy. I know I'm funny. I know I was always

the team rep because I was the one that would speak out. But team rep wasn't a paid role or anything. It was the one that got all the problems dumped on them and had to go to management.

It was getting to go on one trip abroad to go and train at another office. So I got to go to Madrid, which was lovely, but then asking to go on another one to Hong Kong six months later and being told, Oh Paula you've got to give other people a chance to go on trips.

when it went to somebody who was going on trips all the time. It was going to an awards ceremony and being patted on the head and being told, oh, Paula, I love your little outfit.

I'm only 4 foot 11.

And it's, you know, it's always not the most competent person but the one that made managers feel the most comfortable. And it shapes you in a couple of ways. So first you start shrinking yourself. So you think, you know, you're the problem. What have I done? What have I said? Who have I said it to? In what way? And then you just realise it's structural.

because it's a sorting system that confuses conformity with leadership because I've always been the one that looked different as well. always been, I'm not at the moment, but I've always been the one with the dyed hair and, but I've got facial piercings, you know, at the grand old age of 55 and I'm covered in tattoos.

And once you realise that clearly you stop auditioning for jobs that you're already doing. So I think that's it. stop. You stop trying your best and you work to rule. I remember very clearly making a decision just to do what was on my job description. Nothing more, nothing less.

Nic (15:26)

So then in your view, what myths or assumptions about neurodivergent professionals would contribute to situations like being overlooked despite being highly competent?

Paula Jones (15:35)

I

think the biggest myth is that autistic people or neurodivergent people lack leadership skills and lack competence and what we actually lack is tolerance for BS. There's a belief that good communication looks like eye contact and neurotypical tone patterns and it doesn't. It's clarity and it's follow through.

and

workplaces still reward performance over substance and hitting sometimes what we can see as very clearly

arbitrary targets to justify a team's performance for a given target. You know, when a team exists within a company and they've got to justify their existence, it's very difficult not to see that. And when you're working towards targets,

that make that very obvious and you see that again it's part of the pattern recognition and working towards that is very demotivating but you've got to play the game, you've got to be part of it but yeah, workplaces reward performance over substance the targets that do matter of course you're going to work towards them and maybe it's not up to us to say what targets matter and what

don't but we feel it and that's problematic and I understand that. The other myth is that autistic competence is accidental, like we're stumbling into excellence by mistake but it's a skill, again it's pattern mastery, it's focus and it's hard work and we're all capable of it.

Nic (17:12)

That's definitely true. I think the other challenge as well, obviously you mentioned that being targeted as an individual team there.

If an organization is going through a massive restructure as well, what you'll typically find is an autistic individual may not be coping as well because there's a lot of ambiguity, there's a

Paula Jones (17:38)

What?

Nic (17:39)

lot of organizational change that's going on, and there's so many unknowns and they're just stuck in the middle and they're like, do I still have a job? If I still have a job, what's my role going to be? Is that going to change?

If it is going to change, how much is it going to change? And there's so many thoughts going on in their heads and at the same time they feel unsupported, which is terrifying.

Paula Jones (18:02)

absolutely terrifying. We need clear direction and we need to feel safe. Without those two things you suddenly bungee jumping with no rope.

Terrifying.

Nic (18:10)

It's a good

analogy. Not one that I'd definitely try myself. I'm terrified of bungee jumping. Skydiving,

Paula Jones (18:19)

to provide.

Nic (18:20)

me a parachute but not a rope. uh

Paula Jones (18:23)

Absolutely.

Nic (18:26)

So are you able to then share a positive work experience where you did feel genuinely seen and were able to thrive and what made a difference in that situation?

Paula Jones (18:36)

it's

not so much a workplace experience, but it was actually when I was training to become a coach and my coach training lasted for, my initial coach training lasted for over a year because I did lots and lots of, of, I did my initial ICF coach training and then

a number of different modules to support that. So I was with the same coaches for quite a long time. But it was real psychological safety. And I was undiagnosed at that point. But I was having meltdowns because I was with a group of people that I didn't know.

being put into situations situations that were very uncomfortable. For example, one exercise was being made to make eye contact with a person opposite me for five minutes without a break, and I couldn't do it for more than 10 seconds. And I had to leave the room. And...

I got completely supported in that moment because I was out of the room sobbing. absolute support from the trainers. And I got all the way through clear expectations, no pressure, no guessing games, freedom to work in my rhythm. And at the end of it, feedback.

anonymous feedback from the entire group, but one piece of feedback, they were all written on cards and given to us in an envelope at the end. And one was clearly from the trainers and it said, Paula, we all just want to hug you. And it was so, so nice. And it was just the feeling that when all those pieces are in place, we can function. You know, we can.

excel in ways that organizations can't fake. So it's just having support, not being coddled, but just being understood that okay if you can't do that this way, tell us which way works for you and that's fine. And it's never asking for the moon. You know, it's...

That's the thing, it's just, okay, I can't do it that way. Can I observe? Can I maybe work in a different room? Can I, you know, just a slightly different accommodation? Can I wear my headphones? You know, just something really simple. And when an organization says, yes, you know, that's fine. And the excuse, well, if we give...

use that accommodation, everyone's gonna want it. It's just so baseless and untrue. Not everybody wants to do the things that we want to do. It's just so not true.

Nic (21:15)

it's not. And guess the thing with that, it does annoy me when organizations say that, but if you set up the environment in such a way that it's universally designed, then everyone thrives. If that's enabling everybody to wear headphones in a very large open space, let them do that.

If it's, you know, you've got multiple spaces within that large space, but one is specifically designed to be a quiet zone and the others are you're allowed to talk at your desk, then design it that way so that people can thrive and they can choose where to sit.

There are so many different ways that universal design and just configuring spaces can be done to ensure that everybody can thrive in the workplace.

Paula Jones (21:58)

Yeah,

it's so simple.

really don't see the problem.

Nic (22:01)

Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, I'd love to see more organizations being able to take up their universal design principles and being able to set up spaces to ensure that their staff can thrive. I guess the challenge is they don't see it as simple. They see it as a behemoth of a task that needs to be replanned and redesigned and but...

taking those micro steps and testing and learning along the way like a scientist would, you know, I've got a hypothesis. Let's, you know, create one zone that's a quiet zone. If it works, we'll keep it there. If it doesn't, let's reset and do something else differently. But by being able to do that, you're enabling out your staff to feel more comfortable, more psychologically safe, and being able to bring their authentic selves to the workplace.

Paula Jones (22:48)

Yeah. I don't think any other group of people really has to worry about bringing their authentic self to workplace. that's...

Nic (22:55)

It's true.

Paula Jones (22:57)

Why should that be such a worry for anybody?

Nic (23:00)

very true.

So then jumping into a little bit more about your work and positive psychology. So

Positive psychology focuses on strengths, meaning, and wellbeing. How does a strengths-based perspective change how organisations view individuals with AuDHD, or neurodivergence in general?

Paula Jones (23:16)

Okay, so it moves the conversation over from deficit management. So Paula thinks differently to everybody else. Over to talent optimization. So instead of how do we fix Paula's quirks, the fact that Paula can't hold a conversation without at least one swear word blurted out.

to how do we leverage the fact that she sees patterns before other people and solves problems at scale. strengths-based work is not positive thinking and being... only good vibes here. It's not that at all.

it's resource awareness and it's understanding how different nervous systems produce different forms of excellence, I guess, because we're all good at what we do in our own ways and it's spotting what those are. So again, leaning into your strengths, you know, I know I'm good with systems. I spent

many years as an IT trainer because it just slotted into my way of thinking so well and coaching kind of does the same thing with me that I see a I see a problem coming from a mile off with a client and I see it kind of before they do.

and

I kind of know the way around it. You can see the route through it. So I might not tell them what the route is. Yeah, because it's not really my job to do that, but that's kind of the science of strengths. It's there. You hypothesize, okay? This is the problem. This is how we would get there. But let's see what the client contributes to get them there as well.

They may not have all the answers because, you know, we're not all scientists and they wouldn't need a coach if they did have all the answers. yeah, it's, recognizing that we go from deficit management to optimization and to leaning into what makes you good.

Nic (25:04)

So guess from a coaching perspective, if you do see those roots, it's guiding the coachee, the counterpart, there we go. I remember my ICF training. So it's guiding that counterpart into being able to get them to those roots, right?

But in an organization's perspective, as a team leader or a manager or a leader in general,

it's treating each individual as an individual, it's leading each individual as an individual.

You can't expect an individual to fit a mold that you want them to fit in. They're not all going to need a certain management style. They might need more guidance and more hands-on approach and some might need a hands-off approach because they're going to thrive more comfortably that way. But

you still need to obviously do the check-ins of, you know, are you okay? Is everything

good, do you need a hand? But for the most part, those individuals might go, no, I'm good, let me do my job. So

Paula Jones (25:55)

Yeah.

Nic (25:56)

it's trying to ensure that that's set up so that people can succeed.

Paula Jones (26:01)

Yeah,

and if management used the appreciative inquiry route for dealing with each individual, you know, actually deep questioning for them, you know, that even with the no hands off, I'm OK, you know, it's to get to that point of is there anything that would make this better?

you know what what can I do in my hands-off stage when will I know that you need me you know because it's really easy to say hands-off okay and then for somebody to suddenly need them and not know it you know so to set up the signals of okay I can I can ask now you know because a lot of the times autistic people we don't know when that is we don't know when

ask for help. So it's the set up the agreements of okay when does this happen, when does management step in. So make that explicit as well.

Nic (26:55)

And I've always kind of told my immediate team, if you're stuck and you feel as though you can't go any further forward and you've exhausted your avenues of peer mentorship or coaching, because I guess from my perspective,

As they're all trying to learn or use the same system, they should be now helping each other gain that insight But if they've completely exhausted those or if they've exhausted them because of a certain situation and they need that guidance or support they know that they can Reach it reach out on teams or give me a call and go. Hey, I've got this situation How do I go about fixing this and if I'm not sure then I'm like, I'm not sure because it shows them that it's okay to be vulnerable

and not have all the answers, and then I need to go and find the answers for them. And that's exactly what I'm meant to be doing as a leader.

Paula Jones (27:43)

Absolutely and you're doing appreciative inquiry with them.

Nic (27:47)

Yeah.

Paula Jones (27:48)

Yeah and being able to model that vulnerability with them is perfect because you're not setting impossibly high standards that we always feel we've got to meet so that's brilliant. I really like that.

Nic (28:06)

I definitely have unrelenting high standards of myself. I try not to bring that into the workplace. Sometimes it sneaks through and it's like, sorry guys, I don't mean to be a perfectionist, but let's try and make it work a little bit better. But they're

Paula Jones (28:22)

Yes.

Nic (28:24)

very well aware that, you know, hey guys, I do have very high standards. I'm not trying to be a perfectionist, but...

you know, work with me and we can get there together.

Paula Jones (28:34)

Yeah, yeah, that's great. That's what we need to hear from our leaders. That's it.

Nic (28:38)

Absolutely. So then what are some of the unique strengths or capabilities that you often see as an AuDHD individual, especially in the leadership or specialized roles?

Paula Jones (28:47)

Again, systems thinking. That's one of the really great things that neurodivergent leaders can bring. Hyperfocus used strategically. So not, you know, like when you're playing The Sims and it starts in the morning and then suddenly it's dark all around you. That's one of my bad traits.

Integrity of thought, me, I don't actually like the word integrity. When somebody has to point out that they've got integrity, I don't ever trust that person. But, you know, if they're doing the same thing when nobody's looking, then that's good as long as they don't point out that they're doing that. Creative problem solving, I think.

that's one of our really great strengths. And it's often seen as a weakness because we will reach around the back of our head to touch our left ear. yeah, think a lot of people would see that as an issue. But if it's a creative way to solve a problem, then it can often be a really good thing.

The ability to see the consequences downstream before other people have registered the starting point. I we see way ahead in the future before other people do. And that's a bit of a paradox for us as well because the future is quite a difficult concept to grasp for us personally. But in projects,

we see the ball bouncing way before anybody else. And I think we've got a kind of...

I

don't want to sound really lofty when I say this but I think we've got quite a moral spine that's quite difficult to train into people. That sounds a lot more pompous than I mean it to be.

But what I mean by that is we don't do politics in the office politics sense. We do truth, and that's what changes business culture.

Nic (30:40)

Yeah. No, I can see that. I personally don't like playing the politics game. I'd much rather just speak the truth. For me as well, I think...

And don't know if this occurs frequently for other ND individuals, but I have a very strong ethical compass as well. doing something

Paula Jones (30:55)

No.

Nic (30:56)

that's wrong or doing something that is extremely grey, almost black, that sets off my anxiety, it sets off all sorts of things and I just, it makes me extremely uncomfortable.

Paula Jones (31:07)

Absolutely. I was like that in school as well. teacher told me to do something that was slightly off colour, you know, I can remember telling one teacher to sod off. And that was the closest I could get to swearing at them. And even then that earned me detention. you know, it's just, but you're wrong. You're absolutely wrong. You know.

No, detention. Oh sod off, no. This is wrong. And I would stand up for my position so hard and it got me into so much trouble doing that but it was just, I could see that you were sailing so close to the wind with what you're telling me. You know, if I could see that as a sixth former, you know, at 16, 17 years old, why can't you see it?

that just never leaves you. you know, but it's the stuff that can change cultures, obviously not in the school system,

Nic (32:02)

No we can always try and change the school system but that's a much harder task than the organisational system.

Paula Jones (32:06)

Absolutely.

Nic (32:07)

So then in your coaching and academic research, what sort of patterns have you observed in workplaces, be it unintentionally excluding or overlooking Neurodivergent talent?

Paula Jones (32:17)

Three big ones I would say are ambiguity, which I am currently at the sticky end of. Vague roles, unclear expectations.

unwritten social rules.

performance metrics, that's the second one. Usually designed around personality rather than output. And then the assumption that proximity equals competence. That's the one where I'm stuck at the moment. So that's sidelines, remote workers, disabled workers, anyone that doesn't perform sociability. So I've just missed a major deadline.

in my doctorate because I couldn't find the information required or not so much that I couldn't find it but didn't know it existed. And they're not intentional exclusions but the impact's the same. So autistic talent gets lost because the system doesn't account for us. So you know I've got an individual plan.

that is there to help me out at university but it doesn't apply for this particular piece of work so the deadline is missed it affects my complete timeline for my doctorate and

I feel quite ashamed for having missed this because the work was already done. I just hadn't submitted it at the right time and place because I didn't know what either of those were because they weren't in an obvious place for me. And that's...

assumption of competency and proximity.

Assuming competence is a bit of a double-edged sword, think. Because, you know, I'm a clever girl, but I still push doors that say pull. And, you know, that's just how things are, you know, and I can't find things on the university system. I'm great with computers.

But I cannot find things on the university system because it's not obvious where they are, the way things are worded. You know, if I'm told, go and look for this thing, I will take it literally and I will look for this thing. And if it's not worded like that, then it's not there. Yeah, so it wasn't worded that way. It wasn't there. So, you know, that's assuming a competency.

that I don't have, you know, I'm literal. I take it that way. So if you call it something else, I can't find it.

Nic (34:50)

Look, I think that's completely fair though, like trying to find anything on a university system is almost impossible. Especially

first go, like currently doing my master's degree at the same time and if I need to try and find information from the parent university and logging into their website, generally I have to log through several...

different authentications to do like one simple task like checking my results I have to log into I think two or three different portals just to get into check my results I'm like why why can't I just log in once and

Paula Jones (35:19)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nic (35:22)

it's because none of them are tied together properly

I think that's the perfect example of where universal design comes into play. If you can set systems up properly where you don't need to do multiple authentications and you're structuring data in such a way that it can be found by anybody, not just those that designed it initially, then you're making it lot easier for people to be able to submit their work or to be able to do their job.

Paula Jones (35:48)

Yep, absolutely. Did you ever go on the human computer interaction website?

Nic (35:53)

I have not, no.

Paula Jones (35:54)

I don't know if it's still the same, but I remember teaching a course very long time ago, was way over 20 years ago, and the Human Computer Interaction website was a forerunner to UX design, and it was teaching the basics of UX, and it was just the height of irony, Human Computer Interaction with this

heavily text based webpage that you have to scroll at least 20 times to get through to the bottom of the page and it's just seriously not even for neurodivergent people but for neurotypical people it's just like what the hell is this? and it's just the same thing all over again it's just if

neurotypical people wouldn't be able to cope with that. How do we cope with that? My cohort in my doctorate, apart from one girl on there is dyslexic, so she has real struggles. So she's neurodivergent as well. So both of us are lost on this system. But even the neurotypicals

find it really difficult but they can generally find the dates and the links and things but she and I are just completely lost.

Nic (37:10)

That's not

good at all. Leads me perfectly into my next question then. So if you could redesign one part of the employee life cycle, be it recruitment, performance reviews, promotion, or even leadership development, where would you start?

Paula Jones (37:22)

I

think it'd be performance reviews because they're based on subjective impressions filtered through bias and if you if you change bias that they're filtered through as well it's thin-slice judgments where

people have decided that they don't like neurodivergent people. Or it's based on the horn effect where you've said one thing that colors somebody's judgment of you from that point forward. So if you can change that one system performance review, you can change promotions, employee retention,

leadership pipelines and psychological safety so the whole system can change and then if you make performance measurable and behavior expectations explicit you instantly level playing field you make those the criteria right across the board everybody then you fix the system and you know it's it's never about

personality again.

That's it. That's so easy.

Because there are always people who don't get on with each other. But if you allow people to get on and do their jobs, clashes don't tend to happen. You you've got clear expectations of what's expected through each role. Then it doesn't matter so much about who wanders around the same section of carpet for eight hours a day.

They're doing their jobs and you know, you don't have to worry about who's a team player. The team player is, you know, always about who wants to go out for a drink and get hammered on a Friday night. That's what that's down to. the, you know, we're like a family here, you know, yeah, really toxic family. That's usually the vibe. So...

The performance reviews change the performance reviews because it's always subjective and it's always biased.

Nic (39:08)

think it's a definitely good place to start.

Paula Jones (39:11)

And I'm not saying

always very emphatically there, but that's always been my experience.

Nic (39:16)

no, I agree. I think having the right performance review process in place within an organization is key. Not many organizations do that well, but they need to, obviously, ensure that it's fully inclusive and everyone can be included and actively be given a fair go in their performance evaluations.

Paula Jones (39:35)

That's it. you hit that sweet spot where you've got that inclusive aspect to it, or you work in a neurodivergent led firm or company and it tends to be inclusive, so you've got it there. I've never had the pleasure of working in a neurodivergent led company or an inclusive company. It's never happened for me.

So I take away that it's always like that. That's my experience, so I can't say that. But yeah, if you get that right, then you know, I know Maria runs an absolutely wonderful company. She gets that spot on. So yeah.

Nic (40:12)

Yeah, Plovm

great and Maria's obviously been on the show and she was such a wonderful guest to have and have a conversation with.

Paula Jones (40:20)

Yep, yep, we need more Maria's in this world.

Nic (40:22)

Absolutely. So let's jump into a little bit more of your personal journey and research. So how has your doctoral research influenced your approach to coaching and advocacy?

Paula Jones (40:34)

my research, it's, morphed quite a bit and it's...

properly humbled me actually. It's taken me out of quite a saviour complex because I was going to change the world for autistic women and give them this new tool to use and it's going to be great. And actually what I'm

I'm now doing is complete narrative.

research, taking myself out of it completely and the autistic

participants are going to be heard because...

I'm really surprised at how deeply grief cuts in late diagnosed women. And I shouldn't be surprised really because I personally went through a stage of grief at how differently my life could have been if I'd been diagnosed earlier. And it's not because...

We're autistic, but it's because of everything we've lost trying to survive without the right language or the right support. So everything I've learned about being autistic, I learned by myself and put the language to it and did lots of research and it took me a long time to work it out. But it's changed how I coach and

I'm less focused on optimisation and more... It was never really about that for me with coaching other people. I had to become more optimised because my business fell apart and I realised it was executive functioning and this is what led to me getting a diagnosis. But for other women it's more on...

reclamation and identity before strategy. So yeah, it's grief. It's real heartfelt, deep grief. And I do coach men as well. It's not, you know, no men allowed in this zone. In fact, I would say that I actually coach more men than I do women, but the intersectionality...

is what really interests me in my research.

because it's so difficult for women to get diagnosed and for girls to be recognized. So yeah, that's where my interest lies in this. So yeah, it's definitely identity first before any strategic changes are made.

Nic (42:55)

Wonderful, thank you for sharing. So then what visible practical inclusion look like for you beyond policy and in everyday behaviours that can change outcomes?

Paula Jones (43:06)

Well,

definitely not awareness weeks and not posters. It's inclusion, I would say, is when leaders actually change their behaviour. So it's when meetings have written agendas. And I used to teach minute taking.

dullest, boring subject on the planet, but I used to have my delegates giggling all the way through the course because they'd make it more about psychology and stuff. But the number of times that they'd tell me that they didn't have a written agenda beforehand, it was most of the time. And, you know, you have to have a written agenda, but you need a map.

You need a roadmap of where you're you expect it to be heading. And we need deadlines that come with actual timelines and not panic. So again, that's very appropriate for me at the moment. And then having someone say what support do you need to do your best work? It's a lovely question to be asked. you know, what is it you need?

to be at your best. Who asks you that in your daily life? And when they actually mean it, it's a bonus. So practical inclusion doesn't need a big budget, it just needs intention behind it.

I think that's really simple. You know, just to

Nic (44:19)

Yeah.

Paula Jones (44:20)

say what you mean.

Nic (44:21)

think, yeah, ask those questions, but at the same time, it's micro changes, and it's changes that can be taught to anybody. Anyone can learn how to make those adjustments to ensure that everybody feels safe enough to come to work and to do their best work at the same time.

Paula Jones (44:43)

absolutely. I've got a contact who has recently lost his job because he asked for his chair to be placed in a different area of the office. And because based on his personality, he was put in an area where he could be seen and observed.

which is right in the centre of the office.

which is no good to him because that's the noisiest, most difficult for him position in the office. But no, they wanted to observe him. He's a hard worker, you know, so that's not asking what support you need to do your best work. What he needed was a quiet space in the corner where they could still observe him, but no, they put him right in the middle, the most conspicuous.

place what they needed to observe that they had to keep him right there not too sure but that's

That's not observation. That's discrimination.

Nic (45:36)

It's definitely not what to do for sure, that's for sure.

Paula Jones (45:40)

you

Nic (45:40)

Jumping into some glidance for leaders then, what would your message be to leaders or HR teams or even co-workers that you would want them to take away from your story today?

Paula Jones (45:50)

I think if you stop confusing comfort with competence, that would be a start. Cause some of your most talented people will never be the smoothest. and that goes for neurotypical people as well.

Because we all know that person that is wildly talented and because they are wildly talented they ask a lot, they demand a lot and they might not be neurodivergent.

But that's neither here nor there, really, in the big picture of things. So just stop confusing those two things, comfort and competence. But if you only promote the socially easy, you'll keep losing the strategic thinkers and the innovators and the people who tell the truth. And if you've got an autistic person on your team who's thriving,

It's not luck, it's design. They've taken themselves and flattened themselves into the right shape and moulded themselves into what they believe is acceptable and they're screaming for help.

absolutely screaming for help. They're going home and they're exhausted and they've got to do it all over again the next day.

and they're dreading it.

Nic (47:03)

Yeah, social batteries do play big part in being able to function on an everyday basis here in the office or even at home.

And having, even having that time in between. So I was recently listening to Bernay Brown's most recent book and she gave a perfect example of the lock. And...

having those those gates to ensure that the boats can go up or down to ensure that they can fit across but it's having that time in between you know work and home to be able to kind of decompress or compress yourself and reapply before jumping in and similarly you know it could be the time from going from home to the office it's giving you that opportunity to

prepare yourself before coming in and performing at your best or performing at a level that you need to perform at.

Paula Jones (47:50)

Yeah.

Completely. There were a lot of times when I was a trainer because I was doing systems training and apps trainers wages and apps trainers conditions that I would have to be up at four o'clock in the morning to travel on site. A technical trainer, systems trainer, would get a hotel the night before but I wouldn't because I was an apps trainer. So I'd be traveling and I would

done by the time I got on site at least five hours before arriving on site and then have to train. So was already exhausted by the time I had to train and get my game face on and then get home and it might be a five day course so I'd have to do that for five days and then I'd be ill the next week because it was so exhausting.

and I just thought I was, know, something wrong with you girl, everybody else manages this, what's wrong with you? And before diagnosis I just thought something's seriously the matter with you.

but yeah, apparently not.

Nic (48:52)

It's definitely

not normal to work an 18 hour day with 10 hours of travel in between, that's for sure.

So then for organisations that are ready to improve, what's one actionable step that they could take tomorrow to support them to keep neurodivergent talent going forward?

Paula Jones (49:06)

Really

simple, make expectations explicit. The easiest thing anyone can do. Clarity is the cheapest, most powerful inclusion tool that you've got. Write things down, make them accessible, send the brief out, state the criteria, don't make people guess the rules.

Simple, easy, costs nothing.

Nic (49:28)

Perfectly said. Paula, I'd love to turn the mic over to you. I love to give my guests the opportunity to ask me a question or a set of questions. Is there anything that you'd like to ask me today?

Paula Jones (49:38)

Yeah, I'd like to ask what you think organizations fear losing if they genuinely embrace neurodivergent ways of thinking because it's rarely resources. What do you think they fear losing?

Nic (49:54)

I think probably one of the biggest misconceptions that I see would be that they think it's going to cost them a fortune to be able to support neurodivergent individuals. It could be a time and money problem. It could be a time and quality problem. I don't see it really being a quality problem though.

definitely see it probably more as that time and money problem where it's going to take too much time to set up which is going to take away from us being able to deliver projects

and or support the business in being able to perform functions and it's going to cost us an absolute packet of money to go and set up inclusion to enable them to be at their best. And I think both of those are very big misconceptions that yes it might take a little bit of money to provide some training to your staff on how to best support an individual, doesn't necessarily need to be a neurodivergent individual.

But once that training has been provided and you ensure that people are acting on it instead of just providing the training and then leaving it to be done in the ether and let them move on to their jobs again. Which is generally what happens when people are sent on large group training sessions.

then you're enabling people to be their best selves by facilitating and ensuring that that training actually goes to good use.

Paula Jones (51:11)

Yeah.

Yeah. I agree. How might control come into it?

Nic (51:14)

I'm not sure. think, look, control irrespective of if you're neurotypical or neurodivergent, control is always going to play a factor. People feel as though that they need to have control of their employees. It could be that

For example, if everyone's sitting in a big conference call online, instead of being there in person, enforcing having cameras on instead of allowing people to have camera off and decompress and ensure that they can focus on just being themselves while they're sitting and listening. Because that's perceived as they must be doing something else there, not focused on the job that's occurring in front of them.

where it could just be I've been on an on eight hours worth of video conferences today I need ten minutes to myself and then I'll come back on camera so I think control is always going to be there irrespective of if you are neurodivergent or neurotypical

Paula Jones (52:06)

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Control is always going to be an issue. think autistic people as well are often seen as rude for not appearing on camera. And that's one of the, again, the misconceptions about us is that we're we're rude, we're inflexible, we're, you know, if we don't appear on camera, that's just...

for the proof of that. And it's one of those unfair misconceptions. You know, we have a sense of humor, we have a rabid sense of humor actually. We care, we have empathy, we're generally quite nice, I think. And yeah, but we just get tired quite easily.

Nic (52:43)

Yep.

I mean, it should be outcomes driven, not you're on a screen, right? So if I'm still delivering my work outcome successfully

Paula Jones (52:53)

Mm-hmm.

Nic (52:53)

or beyond successfully, then what does it matter if you can see my face?

Paula Jones (52:58)

Yeah, exactly. What time of day do you work best?

Nic (53:02)

I think it depends on what's going on in and around family life.

For the most part I like to focus more in the morning. Generally I'll get up and go to the gym or go for a run and then I've got a clear head so I can focus for several hours. And then there's typically a lull around that three o'clock period. For me it's that perfect time to walk away and go and collect the kids from school or go for a walk around the block to just clear my head and then jump back in to work for the last couple of hours.

where for me, instead of having that intense focus on being able to focus on a larger piece of work, it might be that I'm reading and responding to my emails and preparing for the next day by going and adding to my to-do list for the following day. That way, it's setting me up for the following day, but at the same time, I'm still being able to achieve work by responding to the...

emails that have landed in my inbox.

Paula Jones (53:56)

Yeah, it's always interesting to me people's work patterns because I think you know it's your 18 hours a day and it's up to you how you choose to use them and when so yeah interesting.

Nic (54:10)

Absolutely. So then

Paula Jones (54:11)

Mm-hmm.

Nic (54:11)

Paula, to finish us off for today, would you love to share something with our listeners today?

Paula Jones (54:19)

Yeah, just that autistic people, don't need fixing. We need environments that stop punishing difference. And that inclusion isn't about being soft and, you know, heads tilting on one side.

Sorry about that. Sorry to hear you're autistic. It's accuracy. It's plain speaking. When people are allowed to work in the way their nervous system is built, then everybody wins. Then we can all be one big happy family.

Nic (54:50)

It's a perfect sentiment to end the conversation. So Paula, thank you very much for joining me here on the Inclusive Shift today. I do appreciate your time and thank you again for jumping on.

Paula Jones (55:01)

Thanks for having me Nic, it's been a pleasure.