Building Inclusivity for Human Variation with Universal Design

Maria is also neuroscientist and a data scientist whose work redefines what inclusion can look like when we stop focusing on diagnosis and start designing for human variation. Maria also brings lived experience. She's autistic, has OCD and hypermobility and comes from an all autistic family. Her advocacy isn't just about awareness, it's about challenging the system and the shape that we work and connect.

Maria, welcome to the Inclusive Shift.

Maria Sigstad (00:50)

Thank you for inviting me.

Nic (00:51)

I'd love to start by hearing when someone asks what you do how do you describe what you do at Plovm and why it matters to you.

Maria Sigstad (00:59)

think it really depends on who asks because when you run a business if you're asked by investors it would be more techy sort of explanation so I usually explain it like it's accessibility tech it's like the easy way to explain it but it's more like accessibility tech but

based on universal design. The reason why I say it like that because then I can sort of say do you know what the universal design is and I explain more about intersectionality, the fact of what you need to take account of, the economical background that people need to understand when it comes to building tech and I think like me as a business that usually if it's me as an advocate then I usually say I build tools on the basis of who you are.

But if it's me as talking with business people, then I usually say accessibility tech. don't say AI because although it has it, I think there's a big buzz, but maybe just because I'm a data scientist. I'm like, I have a lot of hate when people talk about AI. So it's kind of like, there's...

Every single business person is gonna tell you kind of like the same there is a pitch that you do for different people. Although I and a lot of it is masking actually So I have to basically practice it and I know how it will say to one specific person and the other one and if one person that is not from that sector and for example is in green type already all of a sudden ask me I am not prepared to pitch it and I usually pitch it the same way as I already practice it. I cannot switch

which is part of like me being autistic basically.

Nic (02:33)

Yeah, absolutely. It's a challenge, I guess, when you've practiced it so much and then you have to try and switch, because you've practiced it so much, you really don't want to switch. You want to pitch it the way that you've practiced it. I completely can't understand that one.

Maria Sigstad (02:46)

can I think alcohol also, Most inner regions are going to tell you that if they don't have alcohol, they're not going to be themselves. I am kind of the person that can, that doesn't need alcohol, but I'm not going to lie about the fact that if I'm a bit tipsy, that I'm a bit of a better seller as a person because then I don't feel overwhelmed about the sound, the smell, everything around me. And if I, for example, someone touches me all of a sudden while I'm talking, I get even more

sort of shocked but in this event when sometimes you're with many investors or many startup founders you have to sort of like mask the hell out if you want to survive there which is a reality sadly

Nic (03:23)

Absolutely. So Maria, you've said that your advocacy is rooted in design and not diagnosis. Can you unpack what that means for you?

Maria Sigstad (03:30)

I think for me it sort of stems from the fact of how I grew up. I had a mom that was very adamant about the rights that you had in a shop, the rights that you had when you go to museum. And she actually advocated for my brother since I know about, he was the first one to be diagnosed autistic in my family.

Technically he's diagnosed nonverbally autistic or not like diagnosed itself, but he actually can speak a few words. But when I saw how she was basically designing a whole sort of way to communicate because he hated sign language and we in our family sort of design a way to communicate that works for us.

I saw how other people struggle outside of us how to understand him but inside of our family there was a bubble that it was completely normal and I wasn't diagnosed until I left home. I didn't have a bundle of diagnosis of different types because I got bullied and stuff but I think that for me specifically I always thought about the brain as a structure, about systems as a structure and to myself it was always how okay

I'm interested in about the human brain. I'm interested about how people socialize why people socialize in different ways different cultures history is always something that obsessed me but things are different that we are actually very different between each other's but there are some similarities that you can find between culture and history and patterns that have repeated but those intersections actually build a design so for me my advocacy is always based on that sort of design is the design of the fact that you have

knowledge, you have also the fact of how the system works, how society works and you need to actually understand all of them at once. You cannot build inclusion if you don't have the design itself because inclusion by just talking about it and having a talk but you don't give the steps ahead in the future then it ends up being nothing.

Nic (05:22)

Hmm.

Maria Sigstad (05:23)

That's at least my point of view on it.

Nic (05:24)

No, I can see that. You'd have to build the framework or the foundations before you can kind of go, hey, this is going be how we do inclusion. And if you don't have that framework or structure put in place, then it's really just words, isn't it?

Maria Sigstad (05:37)

Yeah, and I think it's part of like, this is topic that a lot of like people that belong to the neurodiversity community talk about, which is the sense of justice. I think it's very rooted within the neurodivergent community, mainly because most of us are obsessed into politics, rights, history, and even outside or even the fact that we had to mask and therefore we end up understanding society maybe a little bit more than others. There's this concept called hyperlexia, which means that you sort of like read more

into the words that other people usually do and that is something that we have done at a survival. So because of those things in a case you have actually designed a structure to be able to survive and that's the reality of it. So when you think about advocacy you need to actually understand that there's all these things that you are actually doing so if you don't forget about it then you can actually understand it and I think that is also the reason why lived experience is very important when it comes to the universe of design.

I can only speak about OCD, autism, PTSD, hypermobility itself or even people that have certain vision impairment. I 100 % am reliant on glasses. I cannot see without them. And that is a reality and we sort of forget these things that we already use in glasses itself. It's already sort of like an adaptation or accommodation that we are actually using so that we can see. If we don't have them, then I wouldn't be talking to you because I couldn't even see the camera.

Nic (06:59)

Yeah, no, you're not alone there. I can't see without mine. I've had them since I was six. you've also mentioned the process of details deeply and in a sense when systems are about to break. So there's such a power in the way that you describe pattern recognition.

how does that sensitivity show up when your work as a neuroscientist and a leader come to play?

Maria Sigstad (07:20)

I think part of it, I have already had to live a lot of my life thinking about the patterns. My family used to think that I was an extrovert but I discovered myself as an introvert just because I can socialize in a way that people wouldn't think that I actually struggle because most of it I plan things in a three days sort of pattern. But the thing is, if I do that sort of structure and that is my pattern and I understand those patterns, how come we actually sort of stems or even build

on the basis of how other people function in normal patterns, how we usually function every day and how can we actually adapt that. And because that is actually where technology could come into place. alot of the things right now what people don't understand is that AI is trained by people with biases. So when you have certain biases and you're already training only with men that for example may not be disabled themselves, then it comes with their biases.

because

of how they gather data so that they can train that model. The same happens with technology. If you're not disabled yourself or you do not feel... and disabled on the basis of the social model of disability, which means that it's the society that is disabling you because it's not providing the system for you to actually live in the society, now that you are disabled. So I think when it comes to all of these things at once, it's the fact that these patterns require data, even tech

requires that these patterns are understood and the reason and it's not enough to have people in an advisory board to talk about them because you wouldn't actually put much importance on them on the system it would be sort of like a minority or a diversity but you wouldn't see as a necessity you would see it as a plus which I think again pattern recognition technology all of this again goes into the fact that if we want to build something universal then we need to understand the universe itself so

oh And those patterns are already in place.

I think on the matter mainly is understand that you as a person that has lived experience have

and have learned different patterns to be able to even in business or in science itself, you have learned, for example, how the brain works. But even that is limited. So the information is actually something that you end up learning by the stage and it's up to the science that it's researched up to that date. I studied in University of Nottingham and I was able to research up to 2020-ish and I was in between even in the hospital when COVID was happening because I was working as a research associate.

And again, I for example, envisioned and saw how for example there were certain biases about autism and ADHD and again, if you are a person that is not being able to critically think or assess you can see the pattern of what they're telling because the way that they were describing autism, ADHD or bipolar disorder, schizophrenia and all of these things, they were describing them more as like sort of medical disorders and not just as sort of like personality changes, things that people live

with in a more of like a normal sort of language and they were very much describing okay how vaccines may be even involved even even though it's not completely involved over that I think

Me as a person growing up outside of science and outside the fact that I had the activism and society that I had, because I lived in a very conservative country in the north of Argentina where people hate anyone that was immigrant, I saw, for example, that there were certain things how people would handle, how people would ignore. But tech...

for me personally, is something so pure and so easy to design because it's a system and it's easy, but the patterns that we have in society are also easy to design the moment you consider all of them. So that means that if we are building this pattern recognition, which is something that we have built at the start of the Plovm it's on the basis of how society works as a pattern, but also on the basis that it needs to adapt on every day because every person is different. And I don't use this

recommendation system in any way.

for other, for third parties. I use it only on the basis, and we use it in Plovm them only on the basis of providing accessible technology for people. For me, what is important is that if we can understand your patterns, the way that you use that technology, then it benefits you. And then it reduces the bias that I have because I admit that I have certain biases and that is a reality. And I'm not gonna forget about that, but I accept that. And it's part of like how I built tech.

Nic (11:43)

Yeah,

everyone's got their own unconscious biases built in. And that's designed through the way you're born, the way that you're raised, the way that you interact with the world. And you constantly obviously evolve those biases over your lifetime. So I guess it.

It's a matter of kind of understanding your own pattern, your own recognition and evaluating how you need to work so that you can then make others aware of how you need to work as well. Right?

Maria Sigstad (12:10)

In that way it's the same. So as long as you're able to...

I think data in itself is something that helps people understand themselves so much. But data without having a person in between completely. Sometimes you just need to allow the data to decide it itself. that's the way. Maybe I'm a very data-centric person on that. I think you can use the same analogy with people itself. So people are people as long as you can see the same patterns. That's the reason why when we mask we sort of like try to build the same patterns that we are seeing in society and the same

happens in NATO, to be honest.

Nic (12:42)

Hmm. Yeah, no, I mean when you were starting to speak about AI before I immediately bought being back to

the unmasking of AI documentary that's on Netflix and obviously the unconscious biases that have been baked into AI as it is today, be it not really recognising black faces because they're being built by primarily white men and the fact that majority of AI companies were ignoring that research and going, not a problem here, but IBM was like, oh, we're going to fix that.

So, you know, there's again, again, there going to be another level of unconscious bias baked in because it's not being designed by someone that's neurodivergent because, but interestingly, there is a lot of studies and research coming out at the moment that says autistics, write more like AI than anyone else and I don't know whether that's, because there's a level of bias there or whether it's because we may

leveraging AI more so we're starting to write more like AI I'm not sure

Maria Sigstad (13:43)

To be honest, to my own opinion and to research itself, the thing is that there's something called prompt engineering. You can literally train an AI to be compliant to whatever you are doing. And that is also scary because a person can have psychopathic ideas without having a second person criticizing that. And what is very important to understand about neurodiversity brain and

boundaries and norms is that if they're not being taught by your parents with a lot of care and understanding of limitations that you for example have when it comes to understanding society and I for example specifically was the kind of person that wanted to experience everything as much possible in society which ended up being me clubbing when I was 16 and a lot of modeling and things that

for my age maybe it was too much but I was glad that when I was 18 I didn't need to party anymore or drink too much or have any sort of things because I tried a bit of that and it wasn't for me. But it was more about trying and I had a mother that understood that giving limits for me wasn't the same as other people. Because if you said no to me I would find a way of a curb and she was more of a friend. But I think when it comes to AI itself...

One thing is the chat assistant, and that's what I'm going to be talking about specifically when it comes to this or the compass of ChatGTP I have actually had people come into me that they use ChatGTP as a way of like comfort or comfort friend. But the scary part is that if you are doing actions that may be hurting other people, you end up being in a lonely bubble when that person or that chat is compliant only to you. And there's already research about how couples, for example, end up being distant to each other because they're using this as a way to like find that

for another person that is understanding. But again, we are not perfect human beings. I am not perfect at all. I never said that I am. And I think that is the most important part to understand when it comes to using this. If we don't have a way to sort of like put compliance and understand that people actually need boundaries inside, we kind of give free speech is one thing, but another thing is about societal boundaries. We do need societal boundaries. And if they're not being taught by our close ones,

they need to be put in compliance. When it comes to AI ethics, that's what I believe itself, if you're using chat assistants or agents in any kind of way to psychologically help you.

Nic (16:04)

Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. So jumping back for a second, you've said in some of our pre-conversations that it's a bit of a balancing act between running at precision and just sheer exhaustion. How do you navigate that and balance that day to day?

Maria Sigstad (16:19)

To be honest, it's a work in progress. I'm not gonna say that I'm perfect at it. I usually have a plan and a structure, but people are not like that and yeah cannot control society. So I have my plan the way that I hope that it works, which is usually, okay, I know that I have this conference in three days. So I'm gonna avoid any social interaction and any sort of change in my structure or plan or routine so that I can be the least overwhelmed sensory

wise because for me smell sound and I also have a baby so I have what's called a eidetic memory I can remember everything the sound the noise and when I was a kid they used to be very impulsive because I I I used to dissociate because it was too much and I used to remember everything non-stop nowadays I have more like a technique or how I usually select knowledge or people and I'm very frowned about the fact that I say to

this and my friends know that because I have friends is that basically the fact that I if I don't remember your face is because I don't consider you important and the reason why

I do that is because I gather so much information even from people that are behind me on a bus and I remember who I want to talk about because it was around my area and I don't have sort of like a filter over that so for me for events it's very important that I'm the least overwhelmed because there are

Sometimes

I can control that and I have sort of dissociation strategy but sometimes it's not possible and when that happens I may have thought that two days of rest is gonna be amazing for me but maybe I need it even a week sometimes and sometimes I cannot balance that because I still have a business to run so I think it's being honest about it and not punishing me to be honest I am very... I think the most important part is self-esteem I don't punish

myself when I feel that I'm burned out or drained and I'm very... the people that are around me also know that I don't like being helped which is why kind of like when I get usually people saying to me okay you need to stop you cannot work

And that is good for me because I can work many hours and I can go to these events and I go back and people see me socializing like doing so much and then when I come back and if you see me at home I'm a person that doesn't speak honestly at home or I have my comics or I have series or have films I have comfort things that I do very structured that don't go out of routine so that I can relax and that's the person that people usually don't see publicly

Nic (18:59)

Yeah, and I have very similar. I'm very social when I'm out, but when I come home, it's give me a Netflix series or an audio book or a podcast and just let me just be.

because it's just, to recharge. And very similarly, if I'm flat because I've been in three days with the workshops, I tell my team, I'm like, guys, my battery's pretty low. I'm here if you need me, I'm still working, but I'm just, I'm flat. And I think it's important to have that level of honesty as well.

Maria Sigstad (19:29)

I think it's understanding social battery also, so I to myself, like 100%, I know that I can socialize. That doesn't mean that I don't feel drained by people socializing with me. So the reason why I describe myself as an introvert is because energy-wise, people, the moment that someone is talking to me, they have drained all of the time that I had left. So it's like a battery that starts going down and down and down.

I know when I have to leave an event because I cannot talk anymore or I start to like the words don't merge anymore so that means I have to leave and I think it's understanding that people around me always think that my dear ones already know me because they know

me a home but I think people that don't know me a home usually sort of like judge it just like she's able to sell so much because I can do sales and that's good but that energy I took to sell something

is something that drives me even double because it's not just socializing, it's doing the whole speech that sometimes you even need to be spontaneous and that spontaneity I usually try not to do it because then I had to rehearse mentally in front of this person before I said it while I'm talking with them because I don't know how to speak without having a... I don't know, I honestly thought that this was actually what got me the diagnosis so honestly I don't know, I thought everyone rehearsed conversations

when they were talking in front of people. I didn't think that people just talk purely.

For me, everything is a speech. When I'm talking to someone that is in business, usually it's a speech that I'm doing in front of them. It's kind of like a very polite sort of way of speech. To be honest, my partner says to me 100 % all the time that I have this sort of professional voice and deep voice whenever I'm talking. But at home I have like a very...

We have a language internally that is more like a very infantile sort of language and it's not just infantile, there's no language at all. It's usually just ecolalian with some things and those things is usually what makes me comfortable at home. I don't need to speak any language, we speak our own language and the same happens in my other family.

Nic (21:36)

That's beautiful. It leads me straight to my next question. So coming from an all-autistic family, how is that shaped the way that you see, be it normal or different?

Maria Sigstad (21:45)

think to be honest, my mother, which is also my co-founder, used to tell me that...

Everyone else lived in a different universe than us. And I realized that my mom was in a different universe completely. My mom was the last to be diagnosed within our family because I asked her to be diagnosed mainly because I was like, look, if everyone else is autistic, I think you are also autistic by the end because of the way that you explain things. she never understood why people were acting in certain ways. And she always acted in her way. She never masked in her

whole life.

So the way that she is, is purely an autistic person in their old form, she never masked. And I always thought that she was living in an alternative reality, okay? Because I got bullied for being myself. I have a very strong character and a very sense of justice. So if I saw someone else getting bullied, then I would usually defend them and then I got bullied twice. And it never been like that, but it's also been like I'm very opinionated.

say not in a bad way, it's just that if I see that something is wrong, it's wrong. Like there's no changing. But at home, I grew up with debates about history and politics, rights, at home. And that's my family. My family has always been about research, understanding, thinking about difference of gender, thinking about different, complete different personalities, by the way. I honestly have seen many different things

and I think it's very important to understand that autistic people are different. We are not the same at all. The way that I see the world maybe I I'm more of like...

person that thinks more about diversity intersections, that's me. Same happens with my co-founder but maybe not my brother specifically but I think what it was cool about our house is that even though there was that we still had a way to understand each other. My brother who is actually maybe not as verbal as me, verbal because of the I don't like using non-verbal but it's like he used an alternative way of communication than me and we communicate in very simple ways sometimes we write

sometimes with whatsapp even if we're in front of each other but he's actually also my best friend

and we communicate very easily but he went to secondary school and he actually had the same as any other people but he himself seems completely different as other people that have been seeing the same as him and I think it's like I always understood that within our house we had a safe place but outside our house it was hell okay so the moment I left my house when I was 21 that's when I started having

say more of like burnout issues because what happened was that I didn't have a place that it was safe for me and I went to for like the first year of university when I was in Nottingham I went to live in a hall when I had to have breakfast lunch and dinner with 400 people every day and for me that was crazy and it

It got me into burnout because also people were writing in the auditorium with their laptop and the sound of the keyboards was too much for me and when I went to the the doctor mentioned that maybe I was autistic. And for me when I got told it wasn't something negative, I grew up in a... for me autism was so normal that I never actually saw it as something bad and I think that's the difference. Like when people say

me sometimes, you don't look autistic, I know that they don't know what autism is and I think it's very important to understand that because they, the people that know me, some people know me really well and know that I was autistic because of certain things that I was doing but

The thing is that I, because I can socialize so well and I can sell and I can do things so well and I can have this amount of knowledge, I think that's what made people think that I wasn't autistic enough. But I started to be an advocate through that time also. So I think for me, I see anyone outside my family or outside my friends as weird or different or...

misunderstanding. I don't know. I have this sense of like I have my normal at home and with my friends and my family but the rest is just chaos and I sometimes actually I actually struggle to understand how some people don't have the same sense of empathy with people and don't see patterns but that's the way that I see it.

Nic (26:04)

No, I agree, having my family at home and my kids that are neurodivergent,

I have a level of empathy and understanding. And so when I walk into an organization and I recognize that people are neurodivergent in some way, shape or form, I typically engage with them slightly differently, but it's more because I try and adjust my communication style to meet their communication style.

because that way I'm respecting them and providing them the same respect that they deserve from anybody. So I think it's important to be able to try and understand and not just make unbiased assumptions.

Maria Sigstad (26:42)

Yeah, and I really want to specify that although I grew up with this sort of like different sort of normality, I always sort of empathize also with other people because I do see that outside of neurodiversity, disability community themselves, I do see I have this sort of saying that actually by the end we are all disabled because throughout age, throughout life, we end up having or experiences different things that we don't think is the disability itself, but it is.

So I think, diagnosis or not, a medical diagnosis doesn't give you a solution. It just gives you a sort of identity. Sometimes it gives you solution when it comes to medication or therapy. But sometimes even the medical system misunderstands what it is or how to actually go with it. So for me, at least when it comes to other people, what I always try to say is that I think we're all...

struggling in different ways and we all have different pains in different ways and I think understanding that and being understanding even when I got bullied I always thought that they had their own situation sometimes actually they have fun by bullying but that's another thing but other people come from certain specific backgrounds and and and they don't choose that and when we are kids we don't choose that and

It's very important to understand that a family and the school is sort of like a grounding stage when it comes to knowledge and when it comes to societal understanding, to be honest.

Nic (28:02)

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I'd love to jump into a little bit more about your work and universal design. So for those that don't really understand the concept, how would you describe universal design in a workplace context?

Maria Sigstad (28:15)

To be honest, as the ground is stage, we shouldn't come in a place where we basically have to disclose who we are, our age, our ethnicity, to be able to be provided any sort of comfort. Okay, not even talking about accommodation accessibility. And that's just setting the ground stage of what Universal Design is.

Universal design follows on the concept that about the intersectionality of who we are as people So that means that when we go into a building or when we use tools, which can be digital or physical They should actually work for us no matter who we are no matter the age ethnicity economical background that we have. Right now we are really reliant on different sorts of tools. For example our phones different software when it comes to even right now recording and I think it's

Some people like the knowledge and access. So how can you make your tool accessible for them even if they don't have any digital tool? And usually does when you think about physical marketing. And that's a very simple way of explaining universal design of like, how do people access your products? That's one stage. But even accessing people, no matter who they are, they may not have even the knowledge of what they need or they don't need. So if you don't provide the sort of like universal way,

to be able to interact with both the physical scenario and also the digital, then you wouldn't be able to develop anything or allow them to feel uncomfortable. So another example would be, when you go to the doctor, you would have certain different questions. But you as a partner, might have provided a lot of different, I wouldn't like to call it accommodations, but maybe adaptations to your partner that maybe the doctor can provide.

And the thing is, if those questions are not in place, okay, what do you do usually? What is the routine? And this is outside of any diagnosis. This is just personality stage or comfort for the person. And also depends on ethnicity also. The way that you braid your hair, the way that you, for example, would like to brush your hair, the way that you like to shower, certain things about boundaries. All of those questions. The thing is, if you have to provide a questionnaire to do that, a person would be too stressed.

So the thing is, how can you provide options? And I think that is basically the idea. You need to provide multiple options. And for that, thing is universal design builds on the concepts that these things should already be in place. It shouldn't be something that you have to ask for. It should be something that if you have, for example, a tablet in a hospital, you should be, for example, given options. Okay, if you're going to be registered as a patient within the hospital, you should be, for example, okay, I like this, this or that.

because we may not even know what we need. So I think that is just the main example. I think when it comes to digital accessibility, there's a lot of misunderstandings of what digital accessibility is. Most people think about maybe dyslexia or screen readers, but I think to be honest, sometimes it's when it's not just think, this is theoretical about knowledgeable people that have worked on this, including me, I think.

One of the main things is, okay, economical. How a phone is expensive, for example. If, for example, a phone can be expensive for a certain community, then it's not accessible for them. If you, for example, require people to use digital ID to require certain things, then you're forgetting that some people may not be even able to buy a phone. But then that's one stage of access to digital. But then the second stage is like...

Okay, are my services accessible to people? Meaning the content, not even the use of the software. There's another thing is that people already may already have accessibility tools, okay? Because some people have lived many years with maybe physical or visible disabilities, which could be, for example, if they're blind or deaf and understanding that they already have a screen reader. So if you provide them a tool,

It should actually be about something that can merge with the things that they already have. Same happens when it comes to language. If you're translating something, needs to translate to the dialect that they prefer to use. And also with the kind of knowledge that they have. Too much information is also overwhelming for people. So providing the information in the right way and in the right setup. but also, for example, let's say that you have those accomodations and you put them in a category, health and welfare.

but maybe you also have another category which is work but you also have health and welfare in work those things are too broad and you're not explaining what that is the content that is inside and how does it correlate so when people have to access they may end up finding what they need in work but they may go to health and welfare if you're not providing something that actually describes what people can find as content inside that even as a button or as a

animation or whatever you're doing, then people are not going to be able to access the information that they need very fast. This is outside of any disability, this is basically for everyone. And I think that is the main thing. When you talk about universal design, it goes not just for the sense of accessibility, it goes on the accessibility, not for disability only, it's for everyone. Because access and universal design bases on access to everyone.

And I think that is the difference in concept when we talk just about neurodiversity. I think I don't like to talk just about neurodiversity because although part of me identifies within the community, it doesn't serve every single intersection that goes across that I belong to because I also have a physical mobility. I think understanding also the privilege, for example, of a person, I may be access or seen, for example, in a certain way because I'm white.

But because I have curly hair, I may be seen different than a straight person. And it's understanding the differences. So when you build something, whatever tool or whatever sort of service that you're providing, you need to think about the intersections. And if you don't have anyone in your founding team, then you need to hire someone. Because by the end, you end up creating a damage in society if you don't have that internally. And that is very broad.

but that's basically universal design as a complete scenario with examples.

Nic (34:09)

I love that. And you you've provided such broad examples there as well, both tech and not tech. I think that's a good definition of what universal design should be.

you've said that the most impactful changes are structural changes and not favors. So what are some of those structural shifts that could make the biggest difference in the workplace?

Maria Sigstad (34:29)

To be honest, the start is providing options. People shouldn't go from the interview stage. So what that means is that you, for example, should be given an interactive map on how to access that building because you've never been on that building before. At the same time, it's understanding, okay, if you have whatever you come with, whoever you are, you should be provided with the possibility of having reading time or like pausing time.

in between the interview. The reason why is because we all get anxious no matter who we are and if it's an interview and we are trying to get that job the reality is that we need that job. We need the money. So even if you get the question like why do you want this job? The reality is that we want the money because we need to pay bills. So the reality is that if you can provide comfort from the get-go so minimal, pausing, interactive maps

You can even use just Google Maps but understand to provide, okay, you go this. But another thing is also providing the sort of questions that that person is gonna be asked. Who are they gonna meet? Where are they gonna go? As much information as you can for the interview. When it comes, and that's on the first scenario because I always talk about access first before you go to the workplace. Then when you are in the workplace, it's about, the question, it's okay, how can I maintain that work? What is...

my reason to maintain this work and that is a question as an employee but as an employer the main thing that you should gather is how can I make my employees comfortable again it goes to the same thing options you shouldn't actually push people to go to an open office or work even at the office so if you for example cannot provide a physical accommodation like for example a private meeting room or a private room for the person that cannot work in open office and headphones are not the solution

because open office ends up being that a social employee can come to the person that requires quiet time and talk about life and they cannot put the boundary because socially if you put a boundary you're seen as disrespectful, anti-social and that's the reality so if you for example cannot provide the accommodation of a private meeting room then you should allow the person to prefer to work at home and flexible time is not

the only accommodation you need to do. People do have changes in life and they may not need sick leave. Sometimes what they need is a pause. Meditation is not the solution to that. They need a proper pause. And that means, for example, they would prefer not to work on Friday. Maybe they prefer to work on Saturday. But the reality is that when you're a consultant, you work on deadlines.

Even if you are an associate or one of the big guys you work on deadlines. So your boss is gonna be very pissed if you don't Reach that deadline and it has happened to me I lived in that world and the reality is that I was pushing through a shoulder I have a very sensitive nerve right now and I've been told by my physiotherapist which I have to meet every single time He told me you really cannot code and I'm still coding but that's another thing but

The thing is, it's understanding that I was pushing through while I was at work and I knew that if I didn't put that deadline and I had that expectation from my boss that I was the yes person I was the one that whatever project you have I can sell it, I can do it, I can build it But the thing is that you are building this expectation to your boss and the moment you start saying no then your boss is gonna be like why?

But the thing is, it's also that understanding that an employee's life can change. They can say no, and it's not because something personal. It's not something that you are doing to them physically, personally, one to one. It may be the environment. But asking questions is not the only solution because the thing is, people may not understand what they need. We don't have full knowledge about the tools that we require, the environment that we need.

If we can be provided options of like, okay, it's sort of like gathering background information. A lot of it's what questions are you asking or what options are you providing? So I think when it comes to workplace universal design itself, it's about this. It's providing options no matter who you are. And those options shouldn't be only on the basis of neurodiversity or on the basis of ethnicity, only on the basis of...

It should be based on non-biased options for everyone no matter who you are because by the end most of the accommodations are used for some people for example I had accommodations at university I had reading time, pausing time, I had also my private room for exams and I thrived at university thanks to that and that means that instead of having 30 other people in the same room for my exam I had just a monitor that needed to check that I wasn't

faking or anything, I wasn't cheating. But besides that, I had a very comfortable way to go across. Also for lab activities, I was able to go to the lab 15 minutes before so that I could start to go around and see what the lab was, if it was a new lab, but also where I was going to sit because for me changes are very important. But when it came to work, I never had those, okay Never. And I think...

because I've lived through, I've seen the solution. have actually also seen my family working on the solution for years. And it's so easy to see it, but people still don't do it. And thing is, many countries right now are struggling with sick leave, no matter who you are. And this is no matter diagnosis. And I think by the end, it's going to be a very societal change if, or let's say this.

On the basis of society, the government is relying on us to pay on taxes. So by the end, they don't see the benefit of providing this sort of universal design way to conclusion, then people are going to still keep on sick leave and unemployment and there's not going to be any solution for anyone. And that's the way that I talk about it. I believe in making understand that this is about economics because the reality is that

we want to push changes then we need to explain the economical side aspect of this.

Nic (40:18)

Hmm.

Oh, it's interesting. I mean, here in Australia, there seems to be a bigger push, especially either in the banking industry, especially in the consulting industry, that you're in the office now a minimum of three to four days a week, which takes away that accommodation or that ability to enable someone that may need that accommodation of working from home to thrive, which I find is not ideal.

but I loved the concept there that you had around providing the maps ahead of be it an interview. I personally recommend and always if I'm interviewing someone try and ensure that they have the interview questions at least 12 to 24 hours ahead of my interview.

And then additionally, I guess another thing that we could look at doing and you touched on it was social stories. So if there's a specific way that things need to occur and have a universal way of explaining it where there is pictures, there is words, and there is a story that tells you why it's being done for a specific reason. That way people understand and they can go about their day.

Maria Sigstad (41:23)

It's so simple but it's still seen as a plus, as an addition. I see, I have my personal opinion about how I've seen many inclusion courses and many workshops, HR courses being provided, but by the end there's no solution. There's no scalable solution because people resign and talking

Nic (41:42)

Hmm.

Maria Sigstad (41:43)

doesn't change anything. The reality is that people need tangible changes.

They don't need you learning about inclusion. Technically, actually, they may not even need you to learn about inclusion. They need to have inclusion given. That is, by the end, what they need. So we can talk a lot about equity, equality, about intersectionality. But if we talk and we don't do changes, by the end, there's nothing.

Nic (42:09)

No, that's so true. So, at Plovm you've designed a space that flexes with written-first communication and adjustable environments. Is that very similar to what we were just speaking about around allowing people to work from where they're most comfortable and ensuring that they're most productive? that's work from home, work from home, if it's from the office, from the office, or how does that look?

Maria Sigstad (42:32)

So we have two ways that we usually do tech. Right now we have launched in December 2024 our app that usually people use it and it's free. We do have a subscription but it's usually for very deep tech that they're using because we need to basically pay for the technology. We try to provide it as free as we can. But what we do there is on the basis of problem solving and gamification. So we do have like a problem solving arena where people usually

share their problems with other people but they also can see their problems as skills, okay? So whatever sort of question they have is also a skill. But another thing, it's also, and that is in-built in our recommendation system, but we use that information also so that we also have a gamification arena and that's called, we call it Questville. So we have different houses. One of them, for example, is called Routine Rockstar.

and it has an agenda, routine tracker, and we are gonna add in the future not right now a game that sort of binds both the agenda and the routine tracker together so that you can learn how to do routines. But it's, we usually only allow people from 13 above to use it, mainly on the scenario of social media protection and that, but at the same time, you can integrate your calendars. We do have also a sensation seeker house, which is for meditation.

And then we have what is called our social butterfly house. The reason why we have that one, you see how we're playing with the names. The thing is, we have there one that is for university and one that is work. So it's more of like a simulation scenario, like Sims, but more of like a Pokemon-like vibe. And the reason why I'm explaining like that is like an arcade sort of scenario.

When you can, you would end up simulating scenarios of what, how to ask for recommendations, how, even when a person, your boss gets angry, how to react. I think in those scenarios, it's just a very safe thing. We have feedback that actually said that it was too, that the reality was too perfect. Because we have another house that is called confidence captain that is about rights and learning how to ask for them. But the thing is we had.

comments from certain countries, which was basically that they couldn't ask for that kind of accommodation or adaptation or work. And I consider those feedback correct because to be honest, it's how if we cannot improve, if we do not perfect it or we sort of like change with that scenario. But we also had one feedback basically, which was that they believed, and this is where I disagree, they believed that

adolescents shouldn't have access to social media because they don't have the boundaries and they can end up in circles of people that end up believing in the same thing and they basically shouldn't be interacting with other people that have the same problems. So for me, was sort of like people are here able to interact with people who are like them, who are struggling because the situation was that people in plovm struggle

and may thrive also but what they disagree with which was with the fact that of adolescents seeing how other people struggle with their marriage or struggle with unemployment or struggling to find something or struggle at home or explaining their diagnosis and I think that's what we give we give a safe scenario some people disagree with that because they believe they for some reason they shouldn't be given

the fact that people struggle, but the reality is that we do struggle. And the thing is that we obviously have boundaries. there are certain things we don't allow bullying or violent commentaries between each other, but we do allow people to share their sensitive moments to other people if they want. It's not something that we push. It's something that if they want to find community into that, then we allow them to do it.

But that's basically on one end. But on the second end is that we are building also sort of like something for web owners and it's for small companies and big companies also. But the thing is we have seen a lot about the lack of accessibility in websites and we have already built our own widget that is like movable for different contrasts. We don't do it for like diagnosis basis. We do it on the basis of different options. It's on the basis of what I've talked about.

So how can we provide different options, but not just real time. Also, we provide it within the website. So there's the widget, but there's other things, for example, providing alt text automatically when you post. And this is something that we're thinking about launching by December, 2025, if everything goes well. We might do a live event also. So that's exciting. And it's something that we're adding to that because we have currently, have around 1,400 users within our Plovm app

Different countries, from the U.S. to China, to Egypt, to be honest we have all around the world and people have joined organically through TikTok and it has been good and amazing it's always an up and down with business and I think I usually try to... how can we...

gain more profit so that this app is more free for individuals. That's always what I'm thinking about.

Nic (47:36)

Hmm.

That would be a challenge as a CEO. You always need to kind of ensure that you can still operate, right? Which would be, you're offering the app for free, it's a bit of a challenge because you need to then justify to your investors why you're providing it for free instead of charging a small fee potentially.

Maria Sigstad (47:56)

Precisely. I think part of like what I do when it comes to this, thought, okay, how can I actually make the subscription available for some people? And with time we got feedback. People wanted to use it, but they didn't want to the subscription. So we had, we've been reducing necessities to that and we've seen that it grow. But at the same time, we do face the reality that there are bills to pay and investors to basically make them content. So I think like.

For us, we're always thinking about different ways of that. And that's where kind of like the business and activism entirely goes across. And I always think about how much involved I can get into politics because I, for example, don't like to be involved 100 % in politics if, for example, I'm a business. But I do find myself that I'm being pushed by certain people into non-profit scenarios because, for example, I'm a voluntary here in Oslo, mainly, although I have...

Plovim is in Manchester and Oslo. I basically provide for autistic people that have just been diagnosed. There's a workshop, the Komune, which is usually basically the Oslo city, usually, and there's different departments. Basically, I'm trying to translate right now. Basically, they provide it for people that have just been diagnosed or that want to do these workshops and they're fully for free.

and by the end basically they can ask questions to an autistic person. Of course in my scenario I do it, this is free and I give it fully for free so that they can ask questions and I for example have been asked to be more like a permanent stage and I see for them having a sort of like positive stage. I have been through suicide attempts, bullying and throughout the bad and the good and I think

I like to see and show it all and for them has been beneficial because this workshop is given by psychologists and I for example personally asked the psychologist do you think I should talk about this topic? They may be too hard. What if they asked about them and they told me yeah and that's what I liked about them is that it's realistic. People struggle. We cannot hide that.

And if you really want to help people, we need to be for the struggles and the good. I cannot only show the good side if I don't show them where it comes from. And I don't see myself as a victim. just see, I just have to explain the facts. It's like, for me, to be honest, I always struggle with this mentality of like, hide the struggles, hide the pain, hide the bad stuff. Because the reality is what we do struggle as adults, even when we grow up.

and when we are adolescents, when we kids, we are the same person. So we cannot just hide it and think, yeah, it's business and I'm happy and everything is fine because the reality is that there's a lot of stuff that have gone through the road and for me it's very important to explain that I have my run. Now you see me amazingly when it comes to self-esteem, but I have my struggles in the past and I've done seven years of therapy. I have gone through PTSD therapy and

For me, it's very important to explain that. You don't see a person that hasn't done the job, that hasn't actually tried to put herself, okay, how can I be myself fully? And for me has always been about that. Sharing the reality, not sharing just the good and the business is doing great because it's not like that.

Nic (51:09)

You're trying to show the human side as well. It's not just about showing the positive perspective, it's about being your holistic self for those people so that they can really authentically see that it's okay to be human and it's okay to be you. You don't have to hide parts of yourself.

Maria Sigstad (51:28)

Yeah, and I can share one of the main questions that I get asked is like, okay, how can you... Let's say that a person is talking non-stop to you and how can you respectfully say, okay, I'm feeling like this is too much. And I usually tell them the reality of like, there's the A and the B, how comfortable you feel with this person. If you feel comfortable, then you should put boundaries. But if you don't feel comfortable, then it's dependent on you. I cannot control a person

to do what they're doing but you should have a personal decision over that. What happens and this is the reality is that I grew up with a family with a lot of care and love and empathy. I've never grew up with limitations or being told that because I'm autistic or because I am like this or that I will not have the same future as other people. So what I usually say them is you have control over whatever decision you have socially. There's no perfect, there's no good or bad.

There is a morality obviously, don't be violent against people but try to be yourself as much as you can and what makes you feel comfortable. If you feel like you can unmask and you can be yourself then be yourself because I'm mainly talking to autistic people here. I think what happens is that sometimes for example they live with other people in a region called Kalehtiv which basically is a house with many people and usually it's like four people.

and they have different routines and different understandings of what is socializing and it's that and the thing is I have the privilege that I can live by myself with my partner but not everyone has that other people have to live with another colleague or even with their family and maybe their family is not understanding and it's understanding that I have the privilege to grow in a all

Autistic family and for me I was comfortable with some of the people I have met people throughout my advocacy that have been hit by the parents because they couldn't look in front of Like they couldn't look the eyes face to face and they were pushed to to look like that and I have seen different scenarios of what it is and most of the most of the part whenever I talk to parents also, I the same

Your kid is the same as any other kid. You shouldn't push themselves and you shouldn't put them to be like you are. And I think that is mainly what happens. because I basically volunteer for autistic adults, I have to have an understanding that they may not have grown up with the same privilege that I had. So it's giving them a scenario where they can ask the questions, where they can feel comfortable mainly.

Nic (53:55)

Hmm, no I can see that. It's definitely important to

Be a role model depending on where you are, right? So for you, you're being a role model and supporting people that are being recently diagnosed. For me, it's trying to be a role model for my kids to say, hey, you don't need to be like everybody else. You need to be yourself. And if

Maria Sigstad (54:14)

Yeah.

Nic (54:15)

that means that no one wants to play with you one day, that's okay. You just need to be you. It's okay to just be you as well.

Maria Sigstad (54:21)

Yeah,

I think the main thing, the main message I would give is this. This is something that I was currently discussing with my mother and co-founder is that people shouldn't be pushed to have friends. Not everyone needs to have friends and there needs to be an understanding over that. You're not a better person if you have friends. You are who you are. And the most important thing that we need to work within ourselves and also if you are a parent or

whoever is your friend is mainly self-esteem. If we can like ourselves, then we have already the happiness that we have within ourselves. Obviously, it may help to have a partner that is also understanding, but it's not gonna help you understand yourself. So by the end, the main work that you need to do by yourself is like being by yourself alone. If you can do that, then you a chance.

Nic (55:07)

Absolutely.

I'd love to get to your opinion on how you foster a psychological safe and open workplace in your teams, both for a fully disabled workplace or just neurodivergent employees in general.

Maria Sigstad (55:22)

I think the main thing and foremost is that we are a team right now of three, which might be growing very soon. We only hire and we only look for disabled people, not just neurodivergent people. Within our team, we mainly have different disabilities ourselves. And I think it's understanding those things. Even if they choose not to disclose it, I, for example, can understand certain patterns and understand that a colleague needs certain things, even if they don't disclose something.

So for example, for me personally, it's very easy to see when someone for example sends me an email or a text or a presentation, what is the way that they process information. But I think it's also understanding, for example, I use recommendation systems that I have built myself to answer those also at the same time so that I can understand, okay, what is the pattern here? Because...

I kind of like have copied myself in a way and recommendation systems is part of AI outside of chat assistance is more of a bit deep complicated sector that a lot of people don't talk about. A recommendation system for example would be Netflix or Amazon or Disney. Whenever you go to those things you usually have a recommendation system in the background that understands who you are. So usually whenever I see certain patterns in certain texts then I say how can I reduce the bias on here and then I usually learn it.

and teach it. But the thing is also that's one part so that I can reduce the bias that I have. Also, so I have within my team also my best friend. So I have my co-founder that is the unbiased of us both. How can I be because I think part of working with your best friend is also she is our customer success. And basically, it's part of like how

Can I be non demanding but also demanding in a way because I'm still the boss in a way. and I think currently we have been working for three or four months and because we were only my so I have worked in my past already with my mom and we have a way to split family from professional life that it's very easy for us. So we don't get personal.

So I have worked formally with her and I used to do quality assistance. So that means like ISO 9001, those kind of things. And I certified her in the institute for that. But as a professional, not as her daughter, as a professional. So we are both friends, colleagues and family. So that's easy for me. So I know how to split that. But I'm also very honest about what kind of necessities I have, what kind of...

things I see. For me, the people that need to work within plovm are people that have lived experience, but also that can understand the morality of plovm. For me, if you cannot understand what we're doing, why we're doing what you're doing, then you shouldn't work for us. The reason why is because it's very intrinsic in what we're doing. So whenever we talk, whenever we are outside, whoever we meet is part of this sort of thing. And that doesn't mean that we are robots. It's just that

It's more of like a passion thing. So I think that is part of the thing. My partners also, the companies I collaborate with are only companies that either work in the intersections or have any sort of diversity in within. One of my partners, which is from Splash, Splash they're basically, I would like to say that in this case, with her permission, it's basically

something that she says is that she can feel safe to be herself with me, she's also friend and that's basically what I see I know that people have judged her, I know that people have judged me but it's basically that she can be herself, tired, four hours of sleep, shout, no shout and I don't see her as like, you are a disgrace in humanity because we're humans and I feel like

whoever in whichever situation, even if you're violent you deserve a place. So usually I get this feedback very often and it's the fact that a lot of people say sorry all the time and I'm very honest. There's a few things that I don't allow for example I don't allow gossip within the company, I don't allow backstabbing. I think those are things that are intrinsic within our sort of status and also the strategies that we have within the company.

HR for example is something that we see it as something external. I see it example HR because I've seen it myself that it's used sort of like a protection mechanism for the company by the end. For me if for example my team decides that they need for example support externally then I would pay for it. That's the way that I see it. Anything that will provide comfort for the people that work within Plovm is something that I'm concerned on.

and I know that I'm not perfect. if for example they say, okay, you're being too much to me, you're being adamant, I usually take the feedback. I also assess other people that know me also, and I sort of like describe the same scenario, but also provide the communication of them towards me so that I have sort of an unbiased way to deal with it. I think it's very important to understand that I don't see myself as a person that is gonna do everything well.

I try to do my best, that doesn't mean that I'm gonna do my best all the time. Maybe sometimes I get it wrong and that's also okay.

Nic (1:00:29)

No, completely true. So then how do leaders balance being flexible with accountability?

Maria Sigstad (1:00:35)

I would say...

For me, there's no way to be a leader if you're not flexible. But at the same time, you shouldn't be fully flexible. I honestly have seen many leaders in positions where they only think that they are supposed to lead as like a dictatorship sort of thing. Do what I tell you. But for me, this has happened my whole life. I ended up leading groups automatically because there wasn't anyone that could give structure. And I've been a person that is obsessed with structure.

So it was always easy for me to do it. And for example, I am now leading a voluntary group that I shouldn't even lead, that it's something that someone else organized it because no one was put in that structure. For me, leading is about setting the structure stage, but also allowing other people to collaborate within the structure. It shouldn't be about me only. And...

That is the main thing. In Norway and Scandinavia itself, they talk a lot about boss structure. The reality is that that is not true. People still go across as like, I'm the boss, you're the employee. There's no class structure there. For me, it's like, I receive feedback. I want people to see me in whatever stage plovm is as a person. I'm not a star. I'm not someone that is perfect, amazing, whatever.

I'm just a person. Talk to me in whatever way and if you want to do something, talk to me in the same way. That is basically the way that I grew up. I still to this day do not understand how people struggle with basically understanding that people are people no matter who they are. If they're stars, if they're leaders, they came from nothing or something or privilege but they're still people.

same as other people. So I think when I lead, I actually don't believe in flexibility. I'm just the same. I'm just, it's just about being a human, a nice human being with empathy. It's like, obviously there are people, I have to be honest that I had my fair share with things and scams and money that has gone away with the business because someone else offered something that wasn't the thing. And that's something that many businesses have gone through.

but it's going through those things that don't see them as like, as just failures and done and then close the business, but mostly learning scenarios. Because it may happen also that you have an employee that doesn't want to work at all. And that is a reality that may happen. How do you deal with those scenarios is that you need to find the patterns and you need to see what is, if they're actually not working because they feel comfortable or...

if they're actually not working because they feel uncomfortable to work and I think that is the important part learn to deal with it because the understanding is that people are still people with a lot of imperfections and that means that not everything this is the main thing that the reason why people don't like inclusion they think that it's gonna make people lazy and I don't agree

I personally have seen many people in burnout instead of being lazy and there is obviously a percentage of people that may be lazy but those people usually are the ones that get raises because they are the ones that do the least but are still there and they're just continuing with the company. For me if you can see the high stakes with people that are working a lot and you want them to remain in the company it shouldn't be about an add-on it should be about everyone.

And if they, for example, don't deliver the way that you want, then you need to ask yourself whether it's because of you or because of how the system is within the company. Even if they're lazy, they may be lazy because they're not motivated. And that is also something to consider. That is my opinion.

Nic (1:04:05)

Absolutely true, though. So what would you say then to organizations that see inclusion as a nice to have instead of a strategic initiative?

Maria Sigstad (1:04:13)

I think the same. It goes across the fact of like inclusion should be intrinsic. It doesn't make people lazy. I think lately with the recent politics that has happened and pushes towards like reducing the DEI. I for example, don't talk about the DEI. I talk about universal design. The reason why is because we need to care about the fact that we are all humans. And it's about, it's not just about inclusion, it's about access

and maintaining that access. So if you think about it that way, it's easy for people to understand it. I think we have been talking in the wrong way. We feel when you talk about inclusion means that you already are excluded. And if I talk about neuroscience, about how people use those words, words are very important on how people see you. If you already feel excluded and you talk about inclusion, then that sort of means that they're going to be like seeing, oh, I'm saving you.

But if you talk about access or universal, then people see it, ⁓ this is also for me. That is a bit of a change in wording. And that's what I would say to leaders. Try to see it as the universal, because I think when we are talking about inclusion, it's psychological triggers more of like a negative way of like, you're feeling excluded. What did I do? And that is not a good way to start the conversation. Sadly.

But it's also how you need to understand, I think that is sort of the point of why I also do sales, is understanding the psychology of wording and how to feel that the other person is also in the same path, if you know what I mean.

Nic (1:05:41)

So what's the cost then of ignoring universal design and inclusion?

Maria Sigstad (1:05:45)

of not doing that?

Nic (1:05:47)

Yeah.

Maria Sigstad (1:05:47)

Well the main cause is that people, again, this is already happening right now, sick leave, it starts with burnout, maybe they have kids and that is good for them but then after having kids they don't want to return to work after that because they were safe at home with their kid and they didn't feel like their job was safe and they either end up in sick leave or they change jobs.

But then the other job is going to be the same. So it ends up being a lot of turnover changes for a lot of different companies because you haven't changed anything. By the end, it ends up being an economical problem. And it's already an economical problem. Even if you talk about, OK, the AI makes people lazy and whatever, it's still an economical problem and people are still struggling. So the idea here is that if you don't do anything and you don't understand that people are struggling.

then good luck for your business. cannot say more than that because to be honest accessibility itself is for everyone and that includes also the person that is running the business because what happens is that this is the thing. A lot of people have grown up with like life is hard and therefore it's fine. If you cry then you shouldn't cry because you're weak, you're coward and that mentality is what needs to change.

you are able to have cotton sugar cotton imagine that so I think that is basically the analogy that needs to be given it's something that can be given to you not just to everyone else and I believe over the regions and privileges are important to explain it that way what is the benefit long term is basically show the numbers you are the best if I'm talking to any sort of business owner employer

I usually say this, think about the numbers, whether they show it and think about the marketing because the idea, look, I'm gonna be honest, some people like to do university design because it looks great and amazing. That doesn't mean that they believe in it and that's also okay. If people can actually be happy with doing what they're doing, working at your workplace, but they're using accessible tools, that's fine because you have helped them.

But that doesn't mean that it's okay to talk bad about certain communities. And that is basically what is important, is to maintain that. Cultural changes will only happen if there's an internal understanding. So what I mean by that is that if you're not part of it, you will not change anything. I think the reason why I decided to join the business world was because look, I did amazing sales. I was thriving.

I was doing a lot of that but I was seeing how my body was even failing to myself and I was like okay can I actually put the knowledge that I have for the good? Can I build tech for good instead? Tech for manipulating campaigns so that people can buy the product that you need? Because that's what I was doing. So for me I don't know maybe some business leaders need to add a bit of empathy to themselves but that's another thing.

Nic (1:08:42)

So for you then, what's been the most rewarding part about creating Plovm and seeing Universal Design in action?

Maria Sigstad (1:08:49)

I think it has seen nowadays I'm sort of fans of what we are doing. I don't mind the fans, I mind how they're feeling like they have a community. They have people that agree with their ideas and with their understanding and their necessities. I think it's more about feeling heard. What me, look,

I honestly always talk about this, I do what I do because of things that I didn't have when I was a kid. Not because of my family but because of the system itself. So if I can see those things and those changes happening even if in a minimal stage then that's good. I feel the benefit of that. If I can use what I have in the brain that I have for society in a good way then I feel more useful because look when you have an eidetic memory you can use your brain for whatever you want.

Whatever. And the thing is, for me, if I can use it for the good, then I'm good. And I usually, I learned to code when I was six. And I usually hide it that I was, that I had the knowledge that I was. I never cared about high grades because I didn't like the attention and I never liked the attention. I hate attention. But if that attention can help other people gain what they need, then I'm happy with that.

But me for myself, I would love to be left in the quiet. But I have decided to be out in the public mainly because it helps other people. And as long as I can do that, then I'm fine. And when you are sort of saying no to privacy, there's also consequences. But again, I have the privilege that I have to have the knowledge that I have to apply it and also build the tools that I can do. So if that can help other people, then...

That's the benefit. That's basically what I see as something that is rewarding for me.

Nic (1:10:28)

beautiful. So I'd love to understand then what you hope other CEOs or HR leaders or even designers would take away from our conversation today.

Maria Sigstad (1:10:38)

I think the main thing that I would say is this, Universal Design is not an add-on, it's more about access. So, see it as if you don't have that mentality in place when it comes to designing websites or even architectural designs of buildings and structures and it's not just about the lift, it's about how people access inside the building, how people are inside the building, how they can get to the lift. So...

If you don't have those things, people won't have an easy life. And by the end, you need to see the numbers are not lying. I think most people usually like to use Excels and reports and Power BI reports. So see the Power BI reports that are already available because the data is accessible by the UN. You can literally already see also there's a report done by the EY about the benefits of, for example, neurodiversity accommodation, which is an example.

But there's also another report that was given by the ILO, the International Labour Organization, that has just been recently reported by the disability network ILO. And in there they have worked with L'Oreal, HSBC, and I was in a webinar where they were sharing. I think it's important that they look at the data. Because if you don't believe in accommodation, then at least you can see the numbers, how they benefit, basically.

And that is the thing. I don't like to talk about it as an accommodation. I like to talk more about it as this is more of like universal access for everyone. And that is what universal design is.

Nic (1:12:07)

That's awesome. So turning over the mic to you then, do you have a question for me?

Maria Sigstad (1:12:11)

I think the main question that I would say, although there's many questions that I can pop up, is like, if you would think about the perfect scenario of a workplace access we were talking about, what would be the best thing that you would love to have at work that could help you feel comfortable so that you don't end up in burnout? And that can be anything from feedback, from...

access to certain tools, even an ergonomic desk sometimes, whatever would actually make you feel more comfortable at work. If you know the answer, if you don't know the answer, what kind of way would you prefer to be given access so that you can learn about what kind of tools you can access at work?

Nic (1:12:50)

can probably answer both. So for me, I struggle in an open office. I would much rather be at home in my quiet little office where I have zero distractions and I don't have the people talking around me or talking on a video conference call on the desk next to me. Like, don't do it.

It drives me nuts. If you want to be on a video conference call, go to a pod or something or something quiet so that no one else has to hear your conversation at the same time.

It's something that, yeah, for me, if I can sit and work and operate at home and still communicate with my team, it's wonderful. I guess from a learning perspective or even from an interaction perspective, I'm finding more frequently and more recently that asynchronous ways of engaging is just a game changer. So having the ability to engage with a potential workshop via a miro board that's just been set up

with talk tracks across it. So it says, hey, this is what you need to do in this section. And you go about going and doing it. And then you just let the person know at the other end going, hey, it's all done. I'm going to move on to my next task. Because it gives you that freedom of choosing when you want to do that interaction. But at the same time, you have the ability to sit and think. You're not rushed through a workshop to kind of do what you need to do in that instance.

And

I think if we can start to introduce things like asynchronous meetings or if we can introduce different options for our staff to enable them to be able to interact the way that makes them more comfortable, I think that is going to make the biggest difference in the world.

Maria Sigstad (1:14:27)

I think, look, I also struggled in open office. And I think there's a bit of like what I touched upon was that it's seen as like some, I would say, noise canceling headphones are the solution to it. There's a misunderstanding there because...

people may be around you. mean, even the noise-cancelling headphones may still be, you can still feel the vibration of the person talking. And that's what people miss. And sensitivity is also that, that it still allows people to access your desk and maybe you can benefit from focusing more in depth. And I think another thing that you touch upon and the most important, this is something that it's about, not just a synchronous meeting,

It's also about different types of showing information. Because something that is about engagement is that we do not process information in the same way and we do not prefer information being given in the same way. And that is absolutely acceptable. But we usually say that there is only one way to provide information. that's kind of the thing. How can we provide this in a seamless way? The way that we see, for example, this

of accessibility for websites is there? How can we provide alternative forms of communications that are not just, for example, a screen reader for blind people? And that is the difference of lived experience. If you don't have the knowledge, you don't have the understanding of these things unless you can actually live it and empathize with it. Because you may have an advisory, but you may not prioritize it unless you see it as a priority. So when polling this thing,

I usually do a lot of polls every week and the reason why I do that is because it highlights necessities and it's a very informal way. I don't send the forum with like 40 questions. It's a very fun way and things are very sarcastic sometimes. The reason why is because it provides humor and empathy to people and people sometimes they actually we it's important to understand that we see the things in different ways. I'm in a struggle in the same way that

as you do and that's completely well done. But I think that is again the same things that you would say to leaders is understanding that we don't function in the same way and that's okay. But if we can provide the alternatives and something that is given by everyone then it will be easier. And I see more and more some businesses being developed by people with disabilities but the thing is there's a lot of infantilization and that is the important

part that I basically say that it's important not to have within a business. We sometimes we exclude ourselves because of the way that we see things and it's important to include everyone because the more we are the better we can make changes and even those people that we may disagree with and so

I would say that's also my message from what you're saying and the whole thing. We need to unite. We cannot keep dividing each other. And this is across the world. By the end, whatever policy change that we need is on the basis of human oh kindness, to be honest.

Nic (1:17:29)

I think that's the perfect message to end the show on. So Maria, thank you very much for joining me here on the inclusive shift It's definitely been a great conversation and I've learned a lot. So I do appreciate your time.

Maria Sigstad (1:17:42)

same year. It was a very nice conversation and smooth. think I look I love to have these conversations and I love to talk about this so I'm always open to this.

Nic (1:17:52)

Thank you again.

Maria Sigstad (1:17:52)

Okay, thank you.