Understanding Zoe: Bridging the Gap for Families

An AI-powered social enterprise transforming how families, educators and workplaces support neurodivergent children. Laetitia's work lies at the intersection of technology, lived experience and social impact. She's building systems that she wished existed when she had her daughter first diagnosed and navigating those diagnoses as well. Laetitia, welcome to the Inclusive Shift.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (00:43)

Thank you for having me, Nic.

Nic (00:44)

Laetitia, I'd love to get a little bit more of a sense of you and your diagnosis. So you discovered you were autistic when you were going through your daughter's diagnosis. What was that experience like both emotionally and intellectually? Did it just suddenly make sense or was there something that gradually unfolded for you over time?

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (01:03)

Thank you for asking this question. So I think my own journey as a neurodivergent adult was in two folds. The first one was when Zoe was about 18 months old and

at daycare they told us that we should consider an assessment and I remember reaching out to my parents and they told me that actually when I was five I was myself identified as ADHD which is TDAH in French and with a high IQ but they never wanted to tell me because they didn't want me to be labeled so that was like the first level of kind of okay so I'm ADHD and you know the thing is when you're

back giving a label to your children then they will get all the label and that's what happened to me. I was this kind of kid who will not really sit still in the classroom, will always disrupt everyone but at the same time being the best in my class. It's just this kind of identity that I had of being always a rebel and a divergent thinker and couldn't sit still always in movement and so on. So I was like the first thing so I identified clearly as an ADHD person after hearing that from my parents. And then

When Zoe was assessed as autistic, I will always remember the clinician, you know, looking at me and like, so one of you may be autistic and we kind of know who it is. And so that's when it started planting the seed for me. And I started reading books about unmasking autism. I started reading books about how autism may present in those who identify as women or were born as women. And I just had a moment of reality.

that for a long time in my life I was indeed autistic and I just didn't know so instead of even though I always recognize self-identified individuals I just wanted to make sure that I was not you know getting in my head and in this bubble and so I went and

seek a diagnosis and that's when you know it was quite obvious for the clinician who saw me that I was definitely autistic so I did all of the different tests and there is many you know that exists with with the therapist and and then after a while it was very clear that I was autistic so how did that panned out it was just

moment of grief because I wish I knew earlier and I wished I had you know asked for those accommodations that now I feel more comfortable asking for. A grief for my own younger self, for my own burnout. I burnt out about 11 years ago which now you know was a autistic burnout but at the time I just thought

I was not cut for it. So it's like all of this grief and at the same time there was a big feeling of relief being like, ⁓ that's who I am. And this part of my identity which was missing because I didn't know that part of myself was finally coming into place. so...

I could really give myself the care that I needed but also ask for the care that I needed from the people around me, my relationships, my friends and it just all makes sense. So it's a long circumvulated answer but I hope that gives a quick overview to our listeners.

Nic (04:08)

No,

thank you very much for sharing. It's not uncommon to hear something similar, especially from someone that's being late diagnosed as an adult, right? There's a general sense of a similar story of a little bit of grief along with being able to finally understand who you are as an individual and then obviously ensuring that you're getting the right supports in place from not only your workplace but also

your friends and family as well. So you've also described in our pre catch-up today that you crave both depth and structure. So you shift between idea-driven ADHD energy. How do those

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (04:46)

Yes.

Nic (04:47)

two neurotypes kind of show up in your day-to-day life and how have

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (04:50)

All right.

Nic (04:50)

you learned to kind of

gather them and work with them instead of against them.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (04:54)

Yes, I love this question. And that's a conversation I had actually a little while ago with a psychologist who is an expert and affirming psychologist. And we're talking about the Tug of wars that people may feel. So we're talking about this on a podcast actually, and really talking about how when...

you have different neuro types when you are ADHD and autistic or maybe it's, you know, autistic and OCD or whatever the mix that you have and the beautiful co-occurring magic that you have within you. You have moments where you feel it's two kind of system that are working in parallel. So like you're working with windows and with Apple at the same time. So it's just kind of, it can be confronting. So for me, the way it works

is I get very excited about new things, new shiny object. I always have a new ID. I am very visionary and I get those kinds of things that just drop. And then I have my autistic monotropic part which really wants to get deep, deep, deep, deep, deep and get lost in this deep intros that I will develop with something. And so what I have found really helped me is just

staying committed to a vision or a path so that when my ADHD part really wants to get excited about new things, it's coming after we've done the big chunk that, you know, like a reward, like a dopamine hit. And that's how it works for me. But maybe for someone listening to this, it will be a complete different way. Maybe they need to start with a dopamine hit and then go and do

these big things that they were committed to. so that's where this book that is, you know, very neurotypical about eat the frog may not work for all of us who are neurodivergent. It's like some of us may need to start with those little shiny things in our day and then we get to the big piece of work. And some of us we need to start with a big, big piece of monotropic brain and then we get those little things. And some of us with sprinkles. So I guess for me, it's a sprinkle of both. So I like to do like a big chunk and then I do those little things, new ideas.

ideation and so on that I go back into another big chunk and then those new ideas so I love to work with Pomodoro timer which really helps me harness those parts of me because what I want to say to

everyone was having different neuro-type. It's not about battling like some people will love Windows, some people will love Apple. I'm definitely an Apple person, but it's like you have moments where there are some software that may help you as well that may not be in your favorite software part. So it's about honoring all of those parts and finding what works for you. I think if we try to push one part of ourselves away, this is when we will really struggle to be whole right.

I think that's what I did for a very long time. was just pushing this monotropic brain away and that's where I was a strategy consultant and I was jumping from project to project, but then I was missing the depth. I had the structure of strategy consultant moving from project to project.

But I was unhappy which then led me to a burnout because I was not finding the depth and the obsession and the really needy, greedy and deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, thinkings that I need as well to feel completely fulfilled. And I think it's about each of us harnessing those strengths that we have, which are really unique and need to stop having this, neuro normative approach with work, which is, this is how it should look like because for each of us, it looks different.

Nic (08:32)

I couldn't agree more. I love to dive deep and understand the why underneath the hood a lot of the time, but being a leader and not someone that's meant to be doing the doing anymore, I struggle with letting go of understanding what's under the hood because I shouldn't need to do that anymore, but it's always fun to kind of jump in again and go, that's why that works that way.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (08:53)

Yes.

And I think this is where

leadership needs to change a bit because we have this image of what a leader looks like, but actually you can be a leader and still go, you know, get your hands on thing and go deeper. that's where I think in a few years time, leadership will catch up with how for us neurodivergent folks, need the workforce to be. Because if we're just leading and. Stating at the surface and jumping from topic to topic, it may

work for all neurodivergent folks and so we need to make sure that everything is working for the individual and then you retain the talent rather than

using those talents which create a neurodiverse workforce, which we know from J.P. Morgan research is actually, you know, 140 % more productive. We know that having neurodiverse workforce, so meaning we have neurotypical and neurodivergent individual within the workforce, will produce greater result, not just in a productivity landscape. I'm talking like this because I know to talk to corporation, we need to tell them about productivity, but also in terms of wellbeing, in terms of

culture in terms of diverse thinking, innovation. So all of those individuals are needed in a workplace.

Nic (10:09)

absolutely. And you're right, J.P. Morgan's released that one and then EY has obviously released their, I think it was quite an extensive analysis of why neurodivergent talent is needed and what sort of roles are currently being fulfilled by neurodivergent talent as well. A heavy, obviously heavy focus in the AI and cyberspace, because that's where we play well with analytics,

which

is great.

So what did masking look like for you before you really understood what neurodivergence was and what's changed since you've become or since you've started to unmask?

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (10:44)

Yes, my gosh, I have so many examples. the first thing about masking and unmasking, now I have the privilege of working for myself and being able to unmask at work. And I just want to acknowledge that it may not be the case for everyone listening to this podcast. So I come from a place where

I chose to leave the workforce and work for myself. So now I can unmask. So any examples that I will give are based on my own lived experience and I'm not advising anyone to do what I do now. But there's a first thing around masking. I think the first one was really the bright light and I'm very light sensitive and noise sensitive. And so I would...

I would really struggle after days in the office with my brain in the evening and the weekend I just needed to reset completely which meant I may not be able to enjoy as much as I would like activities with friends with families and just needing lots of darkness. Since I have my own understanding of myself I asked for those accommodations. So I asked for dim light or maybe you know like I did

a few weeks ago I will go on a panel with sunglasses on and not because I am a famous singer just because I just need this to kind of be able past a few hours under those bright lights to actually function and be here for my family after school or be here for anything that I really want to be doing after this so

That's something that I really feel safe now to unmask. So I will ask for those accommodation I will provide myself those accommodation and I will just that's one thing around

sensory and and light sensitivities, but I, know, for someone else, maybe it's something else that's they just relate to. The other thing is for my whole career, I was known as being brutally honest and no BS and stating my truth and having no filter. And I will always remember, and maybe they will listen to this podcast, you know, two of the partner in the strategy consulting firms I used to work for, and they were drawing this kind of three Circle

around you really need to move to you know being partner being into the emotional circle which you are in too much but you also need to be in the political circle and in the rational circle so be careful because sometimes you're too emotional too rational and not enough political I was like no

I can't do that. Like for me, it doesn't make sense. Like I'm not going to be political if you know, this is a wrong idea or this is not ethical or this is not making sense, you know, in terms of the data or the wellbeing of, know, when we design strategy, it needed to be those three circles from their approach. And I was just like, no, I'm not going to do that. And I was very successful with my clients, with the people I was working with in strategy consulting, because actually I was not one of those consultants who was

fitting the mold. already early on in my career, I was this kind of rebel, but it followed me when I moved to Australia and I was a general manager. I was always known for being the French was just brutally honest, but it's not that I was just French. It's also because I am autistic and I just don't tolerate the BS. And when something is not,

doesn't feel ethical, doesn't feel right, I will just say it out loud. And so I realized that I've been unmasking on that front for quite some time.

being gifted I had the luxury of being able to do that because it was often a good idea or some things that will create the right benefit for the business but I understand it's not the case for everyone but this is something that now I unmask beyond business in everything before I was maybe protecting a bit friends and relationships and so on whereas now I'm just like no I'm just gonna state my truth

you like it, you don't like it and that doesn't mean that I'm rude because I'm never rude and I just want to say that out loud for everyone to listen to this. It's not because...

you speak your truth that you have to be rude and hurt someone else's feeling it's about saying the truth that you have to say in the moment rather than masking and trying to protect everyone else but your own well-being and i think we do that a lot when we're masking we're just pleasing everyone you know one of the response which is foreign which is pleasing and we end up pleasing everyone and then who is getting the bad and you know the wrong end of the stick it's actually you as a autistic

Individual and that's when autistic burnout may happen or brown out if you're before the burnout. So yeah

Nic (15:18)

No, I, yeah, I've definitely been told, I don't know how many times, that I am far too brutally honest. I've actually been told a number of times throughout my career that I am burning my brand for being so brutally honest. And I'm like, but if they don't want to hear it, then why can't I just tell them anyway?

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (15:36)

Yeah.

Nic (15:38)

Look, I can appreciate that certain people or some people don't like being told the truth in a blunt way. And sometimes, especially now for me, I try and adjust my tone depending on who I'm speaking with just because I know it's going to go down well or down better.

you're right, that can then take a toll on me as an individual because I'm trying to sugarcoat or adjust the way that I'm speaking to ensure that it comes across in a nicer manner than

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (16:07)

Yes.

Nic (16:08)

perhaps what's coming out of my brain initially.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (16:12)

Yes and this is where again we have

you know, the way it works is a way that works for 80%. Right? So that's where the hidden 20 % it's time for us to also express what works for us. And maybe it looks different and it's about creating that safe space within your organization. That's why I say I'm privileged today to be able to unmask and I actually quite early on unmasked my career because it was like either you have me

or you just fire me, but then that's how I work. So I was quite unmasked to a certain extent, but it's just we need to know that if we wanna have people who are really truly happy at work, they're only happy if they come with their whole self. And if we don't let them.

be their whole self then they will definitely consume so many spoons hiding, masking, compensating that then they will end up in that state of brown out, burn out or any other form of impact that it may have in their own body and well-being so I think it's just something that needs to shift in leadership which is from know Taylorism to really this place of how can we honour diversity diverse thinking

and innovation and we need that more than ever with AI because pattern recognition and doing things in a robotic way is taken so now it's time to really harness the beautiful diversity that we all have in our society and we can all contribute.

Nic (17:52)

Absolutely. So you've also said prior to us catching up that the issue that is now the individuals but the system is being too narrow, right? So can you help me unpack what a narrow system is and what a narrow system is versus say a neural affirming system?

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (18:08)

Yeah, sure. So yeah, so what we often say is we focus on the individual being an error in the system rather than being like, the system has been designed for a few. And so we need to fix the system to make sure that all individual can thrive.

And something that I truly loved learning about is actually in First Nations, in any of the First Nations language there is in Australia, there is no word for disabled. That doesn't exist. So it's some things that I just want us to ponder for a minute. We live in this beautiful land and I am myself in our country now, where if we look back to the ancient ways, there is no word for disabled, which means we're

are all able if society enable us to do so. So that's where I really think that systems right now are just looking at fixing people which is

actually the pathological, you know, the pathology framework, which is, okay, so you have a disorder, like I am myself autistic. You know, if we look at ASD, the clinical term right now in the DSM-5, the D means disorder, but I don't have a disorder. I am autistic. It's really, I need a different framework to thrive. I need a different framework to contribute to society, to be a parent, to be a wife, a friend. I have different ways of being.

and different norms. And so I think this is where we really need to change the norms and just think about all the way. Right now we have what we call neuro norms, which is norms that are shaped for those who are neurotypical, which is, know, 80 % of the population right now, which identifies neurotypical. And this is where we need to shift that to make sure that those who are neurodivergent, so those who identify

as neurodivergent. So we have a divergent way of thinking, of being, and this is a social political term. Like you can't be diagnosed as neurodivergent, you identify as neurodivergent. So whoever is seeking for neurodivergent diagnosis, it doesn't exist. It's you identify as an individual and no one will tell you, you're not neurodivergent. It's something that is by default inclusive. It's a term that we want inclusive. And so that's why I just want to say anyone who is neurodivergent needs to have

code and norms that adapt to them as well. So the nine to five, let's just take this example. The nine to five is very neuro-normative and this is an approach which is inherited from the, you know, the industrial revolution. It was like, okay, let's have everyone in the office from this time to this time and that's what works, that's what makes sense. But actually some of us have a different sensitivity to light and different needs in terms of sleep, different you

know, circadian rhythm and so on. So why don't we adapt this? Why don't we give people the flexibility of working? Like I know I have someone working in my team who is actually very, very efficient and productive in the evening and they'd like to work in the evening. So what about we do that and then rather than starting at 9, they may start at 11. It doesn't matter. Let's look at the output, at the way people are contributing to the well-being and the result of a business.

rather than looking at their time, like nine to five and sitting at a desk and just doing those things, which can be taxing on some individual when other people will work on spike of energy, which is me, like for a long time when I was in corporate, I felt the pressure of staying at my desk, but actually I was doing way more than other people because I would work on spike of energy. So maybe in two hours I would do what someone else will take 10, but then I wouldn't be able to do anything for the rest

of the day because my spoon were all out you know I would run out of spoons so I just think we need to reframe the way we work and and it's not about being lazier it's really about

making sure we all provide what we need for ourselves. And it's the same thing with sleep. You know, it's like now we accept that not everyone needs the eight hours of sleep. So why don't we do the same thing with work and same with school? So that's where we need to change system as well. You know, with school, how, why do we have those kiddos from early on? You know, we put them in those norms, like you have to sit at the table. And I know for our daughter, was impossible. So we move into

an independent school and so in the schools that she's in it's fine if she's running around it's fine if she's lying down it's fine like she is learning as much as she needs but in the way that she needs and her body needs and I think it starts early on with our children

Nic (22:52)

I

agree. Both my kiddos are both neurodivergent as well and one of my sons just hates reading, doesn't enjoy sitting still, he has to be constantly moving around. And the other one...

Definitely likes reading and playing and doing things, but he has certain stims like he can't sit still when he's playing video games. He has to be jumping up and down the entire time. For me, that looks exhausting.

But for him and his needs, that's what works for him. I love the analogy of, let's ensure that we focus more on the outcomes instead of someone sitting at their desk nine to five, right? So if someone has the ability to deliver an outcome,

somewhere else it doesn't necessarily need to be at their desk it could be at home and they've completed their piece of work or this set of work that they need to do for the day or for the week why are we forcing them to be at their desk the entire time?

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (23:40)

I know. it's really like, it's a real simple shift. Like if you let people work in the way that is most aligned with them, you'll get the best result. And it was before knowing, you know, everything about neurodivergence, everything about neuroaffirming approach, neurodiversity affirming, which means honoring everyone's needs and strengths rather than looking at a disorder or deficit in some of us.

that I was, you know, a leader was really honoring everyone's ways of working and potentially because I knew mine were different. So even before COVID, when I was a GM in a big corporation in Australia, leading big data and AI, I was working from home three days a week and I was telling my team, you can do the same. And I was even offering some of my team members to work on condensed week, which means they were working four days a week and doing five days of work because I know that some of them would work.

at night they would enjoy you know doing this piece of work very quickly and then they would need you know an extra day to recover from so it's just those ways of working should be embedded in any organization and I know that some of them I'm still in touch with them they really appreciate this kind of condensed ways that I offered them and those extra days at home and all of that

And of course now they discover through my own journey that they are themselves neurodivergent. But it's just how can we create that without someone having to just disclose an assessment, just listening to them and what are their needs? This is something that I think needs to change as well because today we don't recognize self-identification. People need an assessment to have the accommodation in the workplace. but could we just not have to go down that path?

It would be amazing, I think.

Nic (25:29)

I agree. One thing that I try to do with my team is check in with them and understand how they like to work. We do this as a whole group so that we all learn as a team how we all like to interact with each other as well. It could be how we all deal with stress because it's all different.

the things that we can't tolerate and I tell them immediately that I don't tolerate BS. just I can't do it. And you know we also then try to get a better understanding of you know what are their interests what do they what do they do if you know if they are stressed is it you know eating is it you know they need to go for a break and go for a walk do they need to have a condensed week as you said.

do they need to shift their hours, I always try to do a check in with them, I check in with each of them individually on a fortnightly basis and if they need to they can adjust their shifts and whatever else.

But for me, checking in as a whole team at least every six months, it gives you that opportunity to just reset and understand the team and go, okay, where do we need to go from here? Do we need to shift the way that we're operating as a team?

who needs to work where so that they can work at their best. And

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (26:36)

Yeah.

Nic (26:36)

most of us now work from home 99 % of the time because it's just more convenient, there's less noise, and we just get the best outcome by working from home as opposed to being in an opened plan office where you have to have headphones in or you have to put loops in or just go into a quiet room just to be able to focus.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (26:59)

Yes, I love it.

Nic (27:01)

So you've also talked about how important predictable communication is for you. So what are some simple practical structures, for examples, be it agendas, written follow-ups, quiet processing time, that have made the biggest difference to you in your performance and wellbeing?

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (27:17)

I love this question. So I was, you know, when I was in strategy consulting, I was known for not showing up for a meeting if it had no agenda. And then I took that with me when I joined a big organization here in Australia. And I was just implementing this, like I need an agenda. I need an objective. And it was again, before knowing.

everything about myself because it was before my parents told me I was you know an ADHDR and before getting my own assessment but I just felt that otherwise I didn't know what this meeting was about and I needed to know I needed to have those information so then I could prepare potentially script without knowing I was scripting but potentially script some answers and

just have these differential moments of thinking where I could just be feel more prepared, right? So, and I remember telling my team that 80 % would happen in the preparation. And some of them were neurotypical, were looking at me like, what, 80 % happened in the preparation? But why are we even having the meeting? It was like for the 20 % but it's like the preparation was a big thing for me. And I think it remains true today.

Even though I think the more you learn about something, the more comfortable you are without maybe scripting it or things like that. But it's just, need an agenda. I need to know why am I showing up and what is expected of me? What is the decision to be made and so on.

Definitely an agenda. If I do a podcast like this, I love to know what's the topic, what are the potential questions and so on. And then I script them and I may not read the script or if at some point I feel thrown off, I may go back to the script. It's just having this kind of way where I know I will be able to show up in the best way and not waste anyone else's time and not waste my time, which is very valuable. think time is the most valuable currency. It's something you can't get back, right? So for me, it's always been something

very important. Then the other accommodations that I give myself and I give people as well is when I have a meeting I'm not necessarily asking for a decision to be made in the meeting so I allow for asynchronous communication. So we just all walk away you know and with understanding Zoë for instance when I'm talking about partnership, when I'm talking about recruiting someone, when I'm talking about

yeah, a potential thing to change with the team in terms of the design. And so I just give everyone the space of let's just have a moment for asynchronous reflection and let's just share on Slack or send me an email or, know, tell me via SMS, whichever way we decided was the best way of communication after that meeting to digest and then give feedback.

And of course I'm French, so we always need to go back to a French analogy, but you know, in ratatouille, which is the meal that is typically from the south of France where I grew up, you know, in Provence, my grandma would take hours simmering the different ingredients to make the ratatouille. It was not something you make in five minutes. She would start, you know, with the onion and then removing them and then putting the tomatoes in the juice of the onions and removing them. It's like...

All of this process of simmering and that we use in food, which then gives such a taste, we don't allow it in the conversation that we have with people. We ask them to make a decision like this. So that's another thing that really helps me in kind of communication. And then the last thing that really helps me is allowing for differential communication. some days, especially after speaking on stage or being at a conference or

of that I may not want to be talking so I may become non-speaking and so I prefer to have messages or to just converse on Slack or work on a Google Doc together or so just allowing for another way for the work to be done than having a meeting where I need to talk and when you need to talk back like

Can we find other ways to communicate which allow for each and everyone in the group to be, you know, well. And so that's why I'm a huge fan of mirror board of, you know, any ways where we can collaborate and we may not have to talk as much. So yeah, so I don't know if that answer your question, but I, those are some example of ways for communication to be accommodated.

Nic (31:35)

No, I definitely think it does. I love the ability to have an asynchronous meeting.

It's so inclusive because it enables everyone to participate in the way that they are most comfortable. That doesn't necessarily mean they have to be there in person. You could have talk tracks on a miro board. Perfect way to engage with someone that may just need to have their own space to have their own thinking time while being able to complete that workshop, for example.

And meeting agendas are, you know, are huge nowadays. Like, if you don't have a meeting agenda, you're really setting everyone up for failure because why are you scheduling a block of time, which could be anywhere from 30 minutes to several hours, you know? If you're expecting everyone to give up their time, the least you could do is provide them an agenda. So it's definitely understood. So thank you.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (32:24)

You're welcome.

Nic (32:27)

So can

you give me an example of a well-intentioned inclusion effort that has missed the mark and what made it meaningful instead?

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (32:36)

Wow. my gosh. have so many examples. So I have one, but I'm not going to name the organization because, it's a small world and I never liked to, you know, just poo poo on everyone else. But it's, it's been very interesting to see those sensory room appearing, you know, they want to run inclusive events. So then they're like, Oh, and if you want, we have a sensory room for you if you need to go there. And, and then.

I went there and it was bright neon light, chairs, know, uncomfortable chairs and a few desk and that's it.

And I was like, this is not a sensory room. Have you designed it with neurodivergent folks to ask us? We have some more sensory seekers, have some more sensory avoidants, you have moments where you're seeking and moments where you're avoiding. it's, all movements and then you have moments where you're bystanders. So you really have like those kind of different quadrants that are happening. And so it was very tokenistic. So in a way I was like, oh, I feel there is a sensory room.

So that's a progress but it missed the mark in terms of how it was designed. So I always take and it takes time to do that and I wish more people who are allies would step in and help us in those moments because very often it's for us advocates to just you know take the time to write this email which is always uncomfortable because you're writing to

an organization where potentially you're burning bridges for the future and so on. I always, you know, I'm always like, I need to serve the community first. So I always take the time to send those emails.

And sometimes those emails are just, you know, replied in a nice way, which is, Hey, sure. Well, you know, we'll let you know, we'll involve, you know, the community. We may get back to you and involve you to design this or whatever. But sometimes it's also thank you so much, you know, generic email.

not even taking anything into account and you're like I use so much energy here to just tell you in a way that is brutally honest and respectful

that this is not okay. So I have seen many events right now, even with the Sunflower, you know, being there, being like, my goodness, we're going to do inclusive. We're going to, and they use it as a branding marketing thing where then you arrive and the linear does not even recognize by any of the people in the organization.

and then they show you those sensory room where you're like, excuse me, this is worse than the event itself. Can I go back to the event because this light is just making me sick straight away. So yeah, that's where I see, that's where I'm torn because on one hand, is it progress or not? On one hand, I'm like, yes, it's progress because there is a consideration. But if it's tokenistic, is it real progress or not? So this is where I haven't

yet made my mind around is it a progress or not but at least it's on the map so I'm always quite optimistic so I'm like it's on the map but it becomes like one of those compliance things that they may tick

rather than being something that is truly designed at the heart of it. To give you another example which is super positive, I was at an event a few weeks ago which was truly inclusive. It was the best event I had been in terms of inclusion and I gave the feedback to the organizer. The light were dimmed within the event. They had headphones for those who wanted to listen, you know, in a way with headphones rather than listening to

Everyone knows around you know, those who are eating at the same time as listening to a speaker's, you know, just headphone on perfect They had you know bean bag everywhere where you could see they had fidget they had and then they had those sensory room where you could if you want with a headphone listen So you were not feeling excluded because you needed those space It's just it was so well done and I definitely Gave them a shout out on social. I posted on linkedin about it. I wrote a sub

stack and I just reached out to the organizer being like this needs to transpire in all the events so I don't want to be the French person we're saying everything is wrong there are some events who are at the heart really really inclusive and so we can do better in mainstream event as well

Nic (37:06)

it's so good to hear. haven't been to an event in a little while. I think the most recent one I did go to though, they did have the headphones instead of having obviously all in a conference space, everyone trying to talk over everyone that had the zoned headphones. So you had to put them on while you were sitting there. And I think it made a difference because you felt less overwhelmed while you were there, right?

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (37:29)

Completely.

Yeah.

And for me, I don't hear the other people, know, those who may be sniffing or eating or, you know, the noise can get me, know, sensory. There are some noise which I don't like. And so I'm just like so happy I can put the headphone on if I have a neighbor where I'm not going to control the way they're going to behave, but at least I can control the way I am going to experience the event and the talk and the conference. So yeah, it's really good. Those ones are really good. And was in a, it was only in one room.

So we didn't have to listen to all the talking was just this one room. could listen into the speaker or put headphone on and I was like, this is what we need. We need more of this. So yeah. And also the transcription on the screen, you know, the speaker. So if you don't really want to listen at some point, you just want to duck out and put your noise canceling headphone. can just read, you know, just thinking about other way to process information because listening and talking are not the only way.

Nic (38:27)

Absolutely.

I'd love to jump into the birth of Understanding Zoe. So Understanding Zoe was born through lived experience, right? So what moments sparked the idea that, you know, for you and your family, that you needed to have this change put in place?

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (38:43)

hmm

so there was like two different moments that really really you know I can pin those moments was like I wish something existed I wish something existed and so the first one was when we finished the meeting with a clinician and they send us like I think it's 38 pages of

you know this is Zoe's assessment and off you go and I was like off I go like I just we had a two hours conversation with them uh

to give us all of the feedback and so on. And I was just completely overwhelmed. I was like, I just wish there was something to decrypt this. And since we worked with some researcher and some things that I didn't know, which is actually a research that I need to share with you because it's quite shocking, but most of the diagnosis report written in clinical terms are written for year 11.

And so when you imagine, you know, it's just, takes sort of spoon to read a report that is written on year 11. When we know that most of the time when we read as human, we read on year five to six. So it's like, it's complex English. Not that we, you know, you don't need to have a year 11 to read a year 11 report. You know, I'm, I have a master of science, so I'm quite good and I'm gifted. So I could read those things, but just it takes spoons, especially in a field where it touches the emotional.

part of self, it touched your own child and so on. So I was like, I wish there was something to decrypt it for me and nothing was existing. So that was the first moment and I was like, what is what is the next step for us? And we know through research that many family feelings at limbo of great, I have an assessment, I have a label for my child.

What's next? What do I do now with this? Like, where do I go? What's the next step? And so that's really like this first thing that spark it. And the second thing that's really sparked it, and this is when we really get into building understanding Zoe, for Zoe's support village and us first. We never thought it would become what it is now. So my co-founder and my husband and Zoe's dad was traveling to New Zealand. He used to work as a general manager for a big corporation.

And I was by myself with the girls and I read since through research that one child with ADHD is equivalent to three children. I don't know if you've read that. And so I have

two children who are neurodivergent

and so I was by myself with six children in a way and I was just like my goodness this is tough and Zoe woke up in the middle of the night and she had this panic attack and I remember being like what do I do like what is the strategy what is the

what can help her in this moment? What kind of co-regulation could I give her? I was so tired, so exhausted, so at the end of the rope and in the middle of the night and so on. But I was like, I wish I just had something to remind me what the occupational therapist recommended, what the child psychologist recommended and so on. And I was just feeling like a failure, not even able to support my child in this moment in the way that I...

could have because I just couldn't remember and it's something we know as well is we only retain five to fifteen percent of the information that are given by therapists during those sessions that we have with them so in those moments where your child is distressed you're acting from a place of memory of your own

ways that your parents were parenting you and maybe it's not the way that you want to parent your children or you may be acting in a way that is actually not so good for your child or for yourself so that's where it's about I know a lot of people like trust your intuition with your children I guess my intuition was like I'm very good for intuition in business and things like that but with my children not so good so I just needed that place where I could retrieve very quickly the strategies or recommendation

the things that were really affirming and supportive of each of my child's needs, which are different, and of myself in those moments and so on. So I needed like this kind of view and that's where understanding Zoe was born because at the same time we're dealing with school can't and school refusal. So Zoe's teacher really was on top of all of this happening. The other layer was Zoe's teacher jumping on me every day at 3 p.m. Not that it was, you know, a lack of

care was quite the opposite. was really caring about Zoey and she was like this is what's happening, what can I do, what are the therapists recommending.

let me know and I like, just don't know, like right now I just don't know. I'm so tired. I haven't slept in nine and a half years. So just let me sleep for a minute and I can tell you. And so I was offering to share with her different documents that were shared with me and you know, she didn't have the time to digest all of this. So it was like this kind of impossible triangle where you have the therapist on one hand and the parents on the other hand and the teacher on the other hand and then the support worker who may change all the time because you know,

just how it is, parents who have support worker will know that. It's just really hard to keep the same for a long time, which I would so love, but unfortunately it's oh lots of turnover in that field as well. And so I was just repeating myself over and over. And so we created Understanding Zoe to just be that safe space where everyone could.

ask understanding Zoe rather than asking me, so saving some bandwidth in my own executive functioning, but also for us to be greater at retrieving those information and understanding Zoe better. And then very quickly as Zoe's teacher started using it and you know support worker was starting using it.

and therapists we saw a difference in us in Zoe and in everyone and so like oh maybe there is something here and and then from there we had a few people reaching out because they heard about what we were doing for Zoe and they were like can you build one for me so we started building it for different people and then you know the rest is history then we started really doing this as a social enterprise and really building it from the ground up

Nic (44:57)

It's such an amazing story and one that resonates so much like as a parent of neurodivergent children the constant repeating of myself to teachers every single year to different therapists because people come and go because they've

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (45:17)

Exactly.

Nic (45:17)

chosen to leave a therapy clinic.

and you literally have to start from point one again every single time and you then have to be able to recall every single thing that has been you have been told in the however many years that you've been been trying to get that that individual support so having a platform like this

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (45:39)

that takes lots

of spoons right? it's like every time you have to repeat yourself and reopen every stories which sometimes it's something from the past where like but now you know they they you know they're digesting this differently but you still need to recall it because they need that piece of information because in case at some point your child reacts in this way it's linked to this thing so yeah it's it's just exhausting so i don't know how people do it now i'm

using understanding for that but when people don't have understanding and all of the for those who are on NDIS like all of the times that you need to provide this document from you know last year or two years ago three years ago like where is this where did I save it and I'm very organized professionally but personally it's you know it's always what people say it's like there is one sphere where you are you know so good at and for me it's professionally but personally

I'm so bad, like things are everywhere, my holiday, I'm applying in the last minute. It's just like this kind of thing. so Zoe's document were just everywhere through different email, know, sometimes I would give my Hotmail, sometimes my Gmail, and then, you know,

NDIS plan review. Can you send us all of those things? like, I wish I just don't know where they are. so yeah, it's just it changed everything for us. I'm just hopeful that it will, you know, keep changing lives for other families like it did for us and many other families that are now using it. But yeah, it was born out of pain. I'm telling you.

Nic (47:16)

absolutely.

So

obviously understanding Zoey is kind of where tech advocacy and everything impacts and collides together And you've built PIP an AI assistant that helps you Reinforce obviously the work and try and reduce that bias that everyone's fighting against But how do you prevent PIP from hallucinating from the information that it's capturing?

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (47:41)

Yeah, very good question. we, PIP is not connected to the internet. That's a a good information to share with everyone. as we know AI, or as I know, and I'm sure many of you now knows, but I was working in AI since 2014. So I've been in the field for a little bit longer, but.

AI is trained on data, right? And so if you connect your AI or keep it connected to the internet, then it will learn from all of the things that are on the internet. And you know, a weeks ago, the president of the United States was saying that Panadol was creating autism. So it would have picked up on that, for instance, which is definitely not evidence-based.

it actually claims that it was not the right thing now, thankfully, because we were all saying it, all the advocates. So the way we do it with PIP and with understanding the way is the first thing that comes into the design is it's not connected to the internet. The second thing that comes into the design is we make it affirming. So we correct language to make sure that the language that comes back is affirming. So even if you uploaded...

a report that was for the NDIS, so needed to be deficit-based, will correct it and make it affirming.

Then we make sure that we have this created source of information where you can tap into. will tap into people tap into your personalized information and only yours and that's safely stored in your own space. When you delete it, it's deleted forever. It's not shared with anyone else. No other users have access to it. So this is your space where your own people will be trained on. And then people also train on a creating knowledge base that we create with our team to make sure that it's all

always up to date with evidence base and so on. Then the AI will go there. What we do in the programming is we make sure that it comes back with an answer only if the level of accuracy is to this level. We cross fact it with another, so people has another agent working and controlling what he is doing and making sure that what he come back with. So like this.

checking kind of agents, so then you don't have an AI just working on its own and hallucinating and doing this thing, you have another one which is checking in. And we also have this alert system making sure that if it's doing the wrong thing, then there is an alert which is showing up, so then the answer will not come back. So it's really kind of those kind of.

Procedure and processes that you can put to create an AI that is truly affirming truly non-assucinating And also it has boundaries within which it can only answer so if you ask people to I don't know do your tax return it was just saying this is not what I'm meant to be doing so this is where you have to be very mindful because today you just have

AI coming out of everyone's mouth and you have people who are not truly experts in AI design and ethical responsible AI design which are just doing things and putting it together in five minutes and then serving it to you and actually very quickly

you can test it and you can know that this is not truly well designed. So that's how we do it. And we also work with experts in the field to really help us improve because even though I worked with amazing team in AI, I'm not a data engineer, data scientist. I'm not a computer.

you know, computer science expert and so on whatsoever, but we have those people that we can have, you know, who advise us on that space. we have a researcher who has offered 25 years of experience, you know, in the space of AI with just helping us refine all of this. So we're not perfect, but we are aiming for perfection for sure.

Nic (51:31)

It's so good to hear that there's a level of governance and structure. It reminds me very much of iRobot and the three levels of robotics, right? So you're putting rules in place and that's exactly how AI should be built with rules in

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (51:44)

Yes.

Nic (51:44)

place to prevent it from actually doing the wrong thing. So I'm so

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (51:47)

Exactly.

Nic (51:48)

glad to hear that.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (51:50)

And this is where I think in this AI era, because now AI is a commodity and everyone can just create it and do things and play with it, which I'm all for. love people.

you know, experimenting and innovating and so on. The only things that I want to be mine, I want to, you know, raise awareness for anyone with listening to this is like being mindful that it's not AI with evil. It's how people use AI and what is their intent. And so knowing the intent behind someone building an AI tool is everything. so

I am always very curious about what is your intent? What are you trying to achieve with this? And then you know how maybe they've shaped their structures, their governance, their queries, their control, and all of that is really important. So anyone listening to this beyond, you know.

The conversation we have here is if I can just impart something around AI is making sure because right now governance, AI governance, responsible AI and so on is still as its infancy is making sure that you trust people who have the right intent.

Nic (53:01)

Absolutely,

and thank you for sharing. So what do families, educators, or workplaces tend to misunderstand about neurodivergent children? And how understanding Zoe help shift that?

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (53:13)

Mmm.

I think from the research that we've done, so we've done a research on 1,091 family, which is called making the invisible visible, which you can download for free on our website. We learned some things that for me was really shocking and at the same time really similar to my own experience is

93 % of parents of neurodivergent children feel invisible or misunderstood. And I think this is the first thing that happened which is then impacting the children is as parents of children who are neurodivergent when you share about a meltdown with a friend or the lack of sleep

or the sensory sensitivity or maybe our fed, know, intake differences or PDA, you know, I call it person drive for autonomy. People would call it pathological demand avoidance Yeah, my child also, you know, as a meltdown after school, yeah, my child, you know, sometimes struggle to sleep or yeah, you know, they just want to relate to you, which is lovely. But you're like, no, I'm like right now I'm sharing something which is

an experience that I, which you can't know because you don't have my child right now. So just hold space for that. And so this is this invisible and feeling really misunderstood and people, know, when you share about school camps and like, Oh, you're just, you know, too soft on your child. Like, no.

They just can't go to school. Like the nervous system is too triggered by this and this and that. And they just can't like, they will make themselves sick. They will vomit. were like, it's not, we're not talking about, you know, a tantrum. We're talking about school cans. And so I think this is, this was the first thing that really shocked me when the data came back from the research institutes that we had running it in field independently. was like, my goodness. I was expecting it to be high.

But 93 % I was like okay we have to change something and so that's where if parents are better understood it means that children

have been better understood. It means that workplace have accommodated for this role of caregiver, which many of those parents share, it's about 33 hours in average of extra load that they take home. So we're talking nearly an extra job, right? And so this is those kinds of things that we...

The things that I see as the least understood is as we don't understand the child, we don't understand the caregiver role, we don't understand in the workplace and we don't understand at school and so we don't accommodate. We just try to push that child into a frame that will work because that's how school now is created.

30 kids in a classroom and everyone needs to learn this way, which then creates a society where everyone needs to be this way. So that's where for us it's really about changing this, about allowing, and I'm seeing amazing, amazing initiative from public school to private school, independent school, where there is amazing teachers who are

nurturing neurodiversity and providing accommodation. i'm not saying that everything is wrong but it's the minority. it's not the norm and we need this to become the norm because if we start understanding those children and providing them the right accommodation they're not difficult they're not incapable. presuming incompetence is really annoying me. actually let's shift that and let's presume competence. it's something when

Zoe was in the public exam like, oh, she's not really able to read. No, it's just the way they teach them to read is not congruent with kids who may have gaslight, with maybe gaslight language processor. So they learn differently. And as soon as she started in the independent school that she's in now, they learn how to read completely differently. She reads now a book of 500 and more pages and she's just...

completely loving reading. So it's when we need to just provide the right accommodation to those children and then understand the caregiving invisible load and provide the right accommodations and in the workplace for those parents who are dealing with an extra nearly an extra role you know 33 hours a week so it's a lot.

Nic (57:41)

I can certainly relate. I definitely am thankful to be in an organization that allows me to take the time to travel to therapy sessions and be able to work in a therapy waiting room while my child

has therapy instead of having to take that time off or try and fit it in and around everything else that's going on as well because it makes such a difference.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (58:06)

Completely

Nic (58:06)

But you're right,

the school system specifically, I guess here in Australia, because that's all I really know, but I don't know how much it's going to be different elsewhere, is not really designed for neurodivergent kids. And even you know having a, so we used to have a toolkit of fidgets for the kids to take into their classrooms, but towards the end of this year, we were told,

they're becoming a distraction for all of the other kids because they think it's a box of toys that they get to play with.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (58:35)

Mmm.

Nic (58:37)

So we had to shift tact and I was like, okay, what else can we do to introduce something that helps my child fidget while they're actually out and focus and we introduced them to fidget rings. But I had to get written permission from their principal to allow them to wear jewelry to school to enable them to stim during class, which I think is a bit not great.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (58:59)

Yeah. Yeah. But this

is where, know, we need a whole shift and that really, this is where, instance, for us understanding Zoe helped because one of the teacher help was telling Zoe, don't fidget, stop steaming. It's distracting everyone. And so I encourage her to ask a few questions to understanding Zoe, to understand that actually Zoe needed that. And I think it's really a lack of understanding. You will not ask someone

who is on a wheelchair to just stand up and walk because it's unfair that they're on a wheelchair when the other kids are walking you're like excuse me what is that but when it's an invisible disability we're just expecting those children to just cope just don't feature because it's distracting everyone else you're like excuse me this is what they need you know you will not say don't come with a wheelchair because we need to move the desk around so i know i'm using quite an extreme example here but i'm i i just want to

share that it's not because it seems tiny, that it's not legit. They need those fidgets. They need it to regulate. They need this for them to be able to do their work. So how can we make them feel included rather than being othered because they have those fidgets?

You know, it's just, it's a whole, it's, so shocking and I'm sorry you had to go through this, but I unfortunately hear that way too often. And we were confronted to this through one teacher aid, we just came for a few weeks and we had to educate her with understanding zoe. I was like, no, she's coming with her fidget and you know, and I'm paying the school because it's an independent school. So I could come and say, no way. But just, and I know it's not the case for everyone listening to this, but it's just, you know, sometimes it's advocacy.

also takes a toll on us as parents because we see our children really kind of feeling shaken in the classroom and then what's happening is when they're at home the lid of the Coca-Cola bottle comes off and it's just the whole Coca-Cola everywhere because they haven't been able to steam or to fidget or to regulate in a way that feels good for them so it's insane it's just insane

Nic (1:01:08)

No, I agree. And then that then has a flow and impact on you as a parent because you're trying to work

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (1:01:13)

this.

Nic (1:01:13)

while they're stimming in the background and you then lose your ability to concentrate because you need to help them because they need to self-regulate or co-regulate because it's just a little bit too much after a very long day of not being able to stim.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (1:01:28)

completely

Nic (1:01:29)

So based on your research, so you touched on that there was 1,091 Australian families that you spoke to, how are families currently being let down and what would a truly neuroaffirming ecosystem look like?

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (1:01:44)

Hmm. So what I, what I enjoyed about this research is they didn't necessarily all agreed on what was letting them down.

And this is where you see that everyone is having their own experience. So for some of them, what came back as the things that they felt the least supported by were family and friends. And that was the majority, but it was not such a high difference with those who were saying that it was the school system and so on. But it was what came back as the most prevalent in the sample, which was family and friends.

And so that's where you are like, but my family and my friends are supposed to understand what I'm going through. But actually they may be the one with the least understanding. So that's where actually we need to, and especially, I don't know when this episode will be released, but as we have the big school holiday and the big break in Australia right now, where people will visit families and friends, it's just having this kind of...

healthy conversation with everyone around what you need, what your child needs and so on. So for me it was a very insightful information through that research. you know, actually we always talk about the big system. Here we're talking about the school, we're talking about

But actually it's also things that we can control if that makes sense, which is within our immediate relationship, which are family members and friends. So for us, know that inviting and understanding Zoe, the grandparents was very helpful and making sure that they understand better as their granddaughters was really a big shift. But also with friends, just sharing with them what we're going through and making

sure that they know that if I cancel last minute or if this transition was too hard and we're late so just give me some slack and so it's just this kind of thing where we can actually control those conversations and have those conversations so that was one thing that I found very interesting and around how to make truly affirming

ways of being in society, going back to families and friends by talking about school and about workplace and so on but actually within your family and friends as we approach Christmas what would an affirming and inclusive Christmas look like? Maybe it's not like those kind of bright light and loud long lunches and you know this anticipation of

the reactions they should have when they open their gift and why aren't there any facial expression and why aren't they saying thank you? Like, what is that? They're so rude. Like, what about we change that narrative?

What about we allow snacking for those who are fed? What about we allow them to open their gift when they want and if they don't want to hug, if they don't want to say thank you, if they don't want to look at you in the eyes and if they don't want to express a big sense of joy or if they want to jump around and steam because they have pure autistic joy at this point, just let them be. And I think this is where...

For me, my dream is really having those kind of affirming Christmas, which means we are not just celebrating with the four of us, which is what we ended up doing for the last few years. And this year we're trying a big family Christmas reunion back in France. And I'm telling you, I'm as nervous and as excited as one can be because for the last few years we celebrated just the four of us. So then no one would make any comments about those accommodations that we were making in our house.

but yeah i know that they will expect things so i'm just preparing them and i'm inviting them to use understanding zoe and understand that you know they may not have this big smile that you expect and they may appreciate it asynchronously or they may just you know need a moment to digest what is this gift and

Is this something that I put on my list or is it a different color so then I feel like Santa let me down? You know what is happening for them? And being curious rather than being egocentric and be like but I bought these gifts so why aren't they happy and why aren't they hugging me? You know this kind of thing so that's what I would say. I would dream about an affirming Christmas and that's the experiment we're running this year and as I said very nervous and excited at the same time.

Nic (1:06:04)

love to hear how you go within within a family Christmas that's for sure. We have the long

lunch and we have an even longer dinner with an extended family of 16 plus people so it becomes quite chaotic so I'd absolutely love to see how you go.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (1:06:21)

I will let you know.

Nic (1:06:24)

Leticia, I'd love to turn the mic over to you and offer you the opportunity to ask me some questions. Do you have any questions for me?

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (1:06:33)

Yes, I would love to hear from you. What is the, you know, the thing that you've unmasked the most in your workplace and felt safe about? Because I think you are still working for an organization. So ask and if you're comfortable with that question

Nic (1:06:49)

Yeah, no, look, I don't mind at all. So it honestly depends on the environment and the team that I'm working with or the people that I'm working with at the time. So my direct team, pretty much get an unmasked me 99 % of the time, whether they like it or not. Sometimes I will bring it in. It does depend. I think as I become more comfortable with somebody,

or as I become bring them on a journey with neurodivergence I tend to become more of myself and less masking over time but it definitely does depend on the environment and the people that I'm speaking with at the time

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (1:07:30)

I love it. I love it. It is so cool.

Nic (1:07:34)

Is there anything else? Otherwise, we're happy to keep going.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (1:07:36)

Yeah, I would love

to know what's your special interest because I see lots of CDs or is it CDs behind you? What is it?

Nic (1:07:44)

There are roughly a thousand DVDs and movies sitting behind me. I love getting engrossed in film and TV. It's like my escape from the world. So for me getting into a movie and just being enthralled in what's going on and just escaping the chaos that's been the day is a perfect way for me to just quieten my brain before I go to sleep.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (1:08:10)

I love it. I love it. Such a cool regulation way. I love it. Yeah, I was very intrigued by all of those CD or DVDs now that you have behind you. was like, I'm sure this is linked to his special interest. I love it.

Nic (1:08:22)

Yeah, I absolutely love movies and my kids have just started to get into manga and movies as well, so... and anime. We went to Japan April last year, and since then it's been, Dad, I want to watch this anime and I want to read this manga and I'm like, okay, just calm down, we can see it all, it's gonna take time.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (1:08:44)

That is so cool. So, cool. Thank you for sharing Nic.

Nic (1:08:48)

Absolutely. So to wrap us up for the day then, what is one message that you would want leaders or HR teams or even co-workers to walk away from your story today?

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (1:09:01)

I would love them to know that whoever is having a different experience, whether it's because a neurodivergent or any other experience that they have as individuals is valid and needs to be celebrated and accommodated for. So it's, it's really something about shifting from, judgment to curiosity.

And as soon as we're curious around, I'm curious, what do you need to feel great at work? Or I'm curious, but just shifting your question around curiosity rather than judgment, being like, this is so difficult. They always ask for accommodation and things. Just being curious really, really helps start this truthful journey towards inclusion. yeah, being curious is something that

would love to see more.

Nic (1:09:56)

I absolutely agree. Laetitia, thank you very much for your time and your vulnerability and your leadership today. I really do appreciate the conversation that we've had. anyone that's listening today would like to learn a little bit more about understanding Zoe or the research that we spoke about, you can explore further in the show notes. And as always, thank you for joining me on the Inclusive Shift.

Laetitia Andrac | She/Her (1:10:18)

Thank you, Nic.