Alicia's Journey: From Diagnosis to Advocacy

I'm Nic Nagtzaam, and in each episode, I sit down with neurodivergent professionals, leaders, experts to hear their stories, challenges, and insights in creating inclusive workplaces. My guest today is Alicia, a trainee at Gumada AI Academy and Gumada Enabling Academy working on a project to connect autistic and ADHD job seekers with neuro-inclusive companies in Malaysia. Alicia, welcome to The Inclusive Shift.

Alicia Chui (00:32)

Thank you, Nic. Thanks for the invite.

Nic (00:34)

You've described yourself as a level one autistic. Why do you use the clinical definition instead of just saying autistic?

Alicia Chui (00:40)

Hmm.

because I just got to know about this term around last year when I joined a non-profit organization named AIM High, which stands for Autistic Initiatives Malaysia, which is actually an advocate group. And also we, from time have some session for like

support group for level 1 autistic specifically. So from there, then only I got to know about this term, autism, are level 1, level 2 and level 3. So that's how to do and each level 1, level 2, level 3 requires very different kind of support and accommodation. So for people to understand easier, just mention level 1 autistic.

and

also for neurotypicals, most likely it may also trigger them to ask what is this?

Nic (01:33)

So how does that autism show up in your daily life?

Alicia Chui (01:36)

For me

My report shows that my trait is very high in differences in social, communication, and fixation. So the challenges, especially at the workplace, would be communication and social differences. Like, for example, if I ever change jobs, I will feel struggle to fit in initially. So it's very awkward, but of course,

at the workplace I have to mask to fit in. So that's one of the challenge in the social especially at the workplace and also in communication part especially in in-person role and if I have to present to a lot of people or even sometimes one-to-one conversation in person sometimes my mind will go blank or zone out or even

blanks or even just a short machism involuntarily. these are the three parts that is my greatest challenges.

Nic (02:39)

Was there a moment where you started to see your traits as barriers or as more a part of your identity?

Alicia Chui (02:45)

I'm actually a late diagnosed, I was diagnosed in 38 but even before that I also felt different and I even went to do an online test and it actually shows the trait is there already. But I didn't went for, that was around 2022, my online test was around 2022 but I only went for diagnosis in 2023.

I never know anything about autism and how I got to know this is actually because through a community, AlexiThymia community, one of the members is autistic and she pointed me up and said, hey Alicia, the way you communicate is like very very very structure-formal, serious. So she said, maybe do you want to go and test for autism?

That's how after that only and I have struggles in communication with my ex-colleagues. So I decided to go for it and after one year to 2023 to three. So before that it is I went for the online test for the AlexiThymia I never thought of I never thought of autism is AlexiThymia . First, then only I got to know being pointed out by one of them.

Nic (03:55)

Awesome. Thank you for sharing. So you've also shared with me that you have hyperfocus and problem solving as real strengths for you. Can you walk us through how you've used those as strengths in the workplace?

Alicia Chui (04:06)

Hyperfocus basically gave me very deep focus to complete things. Like for example, even when I was in degree, I completed my thesis writing within three days. But the good part is when I hyperfocus, I can get the job done. The bad part is after that, it's gonna be a crash. I need to sleep throughout the whole weekend.

Also another thing is during deep focus and doing research I'll be able to see things and connect the opportunity for the job that most people would overlook. Like for example in my previous workplace I was being tasked to negotiate for a better deal from our vendor.

of as for our existing marketing tools then I proposed a totally out of box idea I said why don't you merge to why don't you merge to platforms and also negotiate for a lower price from the vendor when I proposed this a lot of people don't believe can't believe that this can be done because which vendor would willing to give

additional platform to you without increasing the price right but I believe that can be done because I have done a very deep research when I have to focus on it and but the challenging part is my communication to bring that over to the people to understand how it can be done so but because they wanted to you wanted the benefits that come out of it so I am being allowed to have

the autonomy to work on it on my own. true enough, managed to negotiate with the vendor because I've studied more than five vendors and the tools and the application and so I know how the competitive landscape is like and the good and the bad for each platform. Then after that, the vendor, when I speak to the vendor and they are willing

to grow with us also. That's how they willing to maintain the cost but increase a lot of other benefits for us and we work together with them on the platform merger, the fuels and all those. that's how the good part is when I hyper focus I able to see things that others can't see and when I bring these results

to my company they were very surprised that this can be done and it brings an annual cost saving to the company which is good.

Nic (06:37)

You touched on having a bit of a trouble with communicating with your colleagues or adjusting your communication with your colleagues. How does that play out for you in the workplace?

Alicia Chui (06:47)

I still remember

One of my ex-colleagues came to me and he said that he said this to me, said, people are very confused with you when you are working, you're very serious. But when you're not working, when you're with us, you are too over friendly. So who are you? I think this is the effects of masking over for many years, we must

especially

in in-person role, you need to go out with people, socialise. Socialising is taking a lot of energy, especially in my mind, thinking, like the script of what can I talk about next and not making people feel awkward in very quiet, very quiet moment. But with my neurodivergent friend, I'm right now with Gamunda AI and Enabling Academy. One of my friends always go back.

with me, a couple with me to go back home. But with my neurodivergent friend, I don't need to mask. We can just keep quiet in the car, two of us, and go back without a single word, and we felt comfortable. But with colleagues, there's the pressure to mask, to fit in, and not making people feel awkward and weird. however, with that also comes with another challenge.

people get confused with our identity. So yeah, it shows in that people get confused with who you are but if you don't,

mask then people may get scared that why are you so quiet so yeah that's the challenge

Nic (08:18)

Yeah, so that

comes down to the double empathy gap, having the trouble of being able to communicate directly with neurotypical individuals as opposed to neurodivergent individuals. And you've obviously touched on how you sort of experienced that with being masking and unmasking and people seeing kind of two different sides to you. Have you

Alicia Chui (08:39)

Yeah. uh

Nic (08:39)

experienced that further within the workplace?

Alicia Chui (08:42)

Within the workplace other than that would be the eye contact. If in-person role, course, I have to look at people's eye contact, Actually, sometimes my mind may wonder. May wonder if I look at you and I have to think what to answer next and I have to think and look at you.

Sometimes my mind may wonder and also I may hear even my own voice or my mind telling me if something else like for example, she's repeating again, that's boring. So it's intrusive very then but I know that one cannot so I have to refocus again. So that is another challenges but which I never tell anyone before because it sounds rude. It sounds very rude.

So right now, where I'm in Gamoda AI and Gamoda Enabling Academy, when I feel my energy is very low, I can't mask, I just don't look at the person and I listen and I just answer. And in that, I would say Gamoda is really a very inclusive workplace. They just embrace us as who we are. That's because they come with the awareness.

how is our trait like and they don't judge us if I just look at somewhere listen and answer without looking at the eye they are alright so there's another part on the eye contacts whereas when I work in remote role right like even right now it is online chat right I can control this part by putting aside the camera ⁓

and not looking directly at the eyes of the person's eyes, this can help

Nic (10:17)

Yeah.

Alicia Chui (10:18)

and it reduces the chance of my mind go blank or anything.

Nic (10:25)

you seen examples where workplaces started to bridge the gap to allow neurodivergent and neurotypical people to work in constructive ways?

Alicia Chui (10:35)

The first time I experienced an inclusive workplace is really in Gangoda Enabling Academy.

They are helping neurodivergent like us to train us and then help us with job placement. this is the first time I previously because I don't know what I don't know. I never know what is inclusive workplace and now until I joined and I only realized, okay, with Gabunda Enabling Academy, right, I able to just be myself without the fear of being judged.

and also like they know our sensory towards light so sometimes when we need to switch on switch off the light for the presentation slide after that need to switch on we may feel very painful at the eye so they will tell us okay we are switching on one two three so I felt the the feelings are they considerate I think that's the word being considerate is the

that make people feel inclusive. Aside from that, during the training also they brought us to their partners, where partners were also embraced inclusive workplace and they are trying to hire neurodivergent as well. So they work with Gamuda Enabling Academy. They brought us to SLB. This is an all-in-guess

service company. over there they have quiet room where we can just go there, go in there anytime if we felt any knock-knock is coming or anything so we can go for the quiet room. And also other than that they also arrange mock interview to help us with interview as we usually have

challenges in interview right so the Gamuda Enabling Academy actually arranged more interview with us with their partners like PWC, Danone so during the interview they even mentioned how they practice inclusive workplace like they want to know more about what is the kind of accommodation that you need such as for me

I did mention that flexible work hours because in the morning I can be a little bit drowsy from my medication. I took apocotapine during the night so in the morning I will still have a little bit drowsy. So they will say they do have flexible work hours also. That helps also for different kinds of needs to accommodate.

and some also have a hybrid setting of work. And I also hear from my job coach saying that sometimes they even ask we are not comfortable with hot desk, keep changing the place. So is it okay to arrange dedicated desk for us? The company will also even...

looking to each, really very personalization to cater to each because each of us has very different needs. Some may not have sensory, some may need same desk. For me, I prefer same desk because I line up everything. I line up all my things for me to look for it easier and not get panic. So for me, I prefer the same desk instead of hot desk. So yeah, when I hear all this, when I go and

When I experienced Gamoda Enabling Academy and I go and visit their partners and I hear about it from my job coach, then I realized, right now, more and more companies are more open and be more inclusive, which is good, news.

Nic (14:10)

Absolutely.

I'd be curious to hear your experience in the reset rooms. How do you find them?

Alicia Chui (14:16)

The quiet room I only went

in once during the visit. feels very... Once we go in, because the wall is like all cushioned, with cushion and it's soft with the beanie bag and all are being cushioned. When we go in, we can totally feel the difference of... How do I describe?

like very calming effect soothing effect like once you go in and close it's like it's very quiet that helps in the i would my own personal term i would say it as a soothing effect calming soothing effect like not so

my heart rate also like going lower. In fact actually I never know I have anxiety. I never know that...

because I have Alexithymia I never know how anxiety feel like. I can feel it in my body but I don't know that is anxiety. Until when I was being prescribed with apocotapine and I took it every night. The first time when I take it, I felt the difference of when my phone have the notification ⁓ or suddenly ring, I felt my heart like there's a slow.

I didn't know that is anxiety. I never knew that is anxiety. So after taking that I realized, this is called anxiety. I'm with the same psychiatric. Then now I know this is anxiety. When I go into the quiet room, I become more aware and understand that my heart is not painful or slow down.

So I feel that is very helpful especially if for me I can feel before a meltdown come kicking so for me I think that is very helpful at least there's a safe space for me to go in and hide until it's over because whenever that I had a meltdown the next thing I'll feel is a shame.

very ashamed of myself. Why? Yeah. And we start to analyze a lot. So I feel the quiet room is very useful as a safe place.

Nic (16:19)

Yeah,

they're definitely designed to be that safe place to let you kind of re-regulate and become more aware of yourself before having to re-enter the workplace. I definitely encourage any organization to get one. We've got a couple ourselves in our workplace and they're phenomenal. They're really great to use.

Alicia Chui (16:40)

That's

very nice.

Nic (16:41)

So you also mentioned that you get practice interviews through Gumuda as well. I'd be curious, do they give you the questions ahead of time or is it more traditional mock style interviews?

Alicia Chui (16:54)

Before the mock interview, actually there's a training session. I'm very grateful to PWC is one of their partners. They actually train us on the frequently asked questions and how to answer. And they even have like a resume clinic for us. They ask us to prepare our resume and then send it to them and then they really look through each and every one of

all of our resume and they put in the notes to let us know how we can improve and during the training they also open up for questions for us to ask and also they let us know what are the ways to actually can

answer the interview.

some very challenging or difficult questions that he may ask and also prepare us for it. that is one of the ways that they help us through the training resume cleaning. Whereas for the mock interview, not all companies have the questions beforehand, but they do let us know who are the interviewers

and What their Roll and all that? Yeah

Nic (18:08)

Do they typically give you a panel style interview or is it normally one-on-one?

Alicia Chui (18:13)

There are two one is HR and one is the whole.

Nic (18:19)

Awesome. So you're currently working on a super exciting project to build a platform that's going to connect autistics and ADHD job seekers to neuro-friendly companies. What inspired you to do this?

Alicia Chui (18:30)

What inspired me to do this is because I took a career break in January this year, right? After a short break, I do start to look at a job. I realized some of the companies when I mentioned about my condition, they went ghosting. And then also when I joined Gamuda Enabling Academy.

I have peers that I realized they are so talented. Some of them are YouTubers, some of them they never learn coding but within two weeks time, group of three of my friends, they managed to create the quiz for online assessment for ADHD, autism and dyslexia. Some of them are very good bakers, I see a lot of talents.

among my peers. So I also felt that it's a waste and untapped talent just because of the awareness is low.

Why would I say awareness is low? Among our peers in Gamuda Enabling Academy, four of us actually went on with AI Academy, Gamuda AI Academy. When we talk about, when we mention about neurodivergent autistic, most people are still not aware or they have different kind of perception of understanding. So I find that it's it's a bit

on both sides, it's employer or even neurodivergent talent, that this is not being bridged. Especially I also read about in one of the reports by Ernst & Young and PWC Malaysia, saying that 80 % to 85 %

are unemployed. So I felt it's big waste on both sides. Yeah, that's how that's how gave me the inspiration to share this idea to my teammates. Initially during the ideation stage.

There are different kinds of ideas being proposed. So of course I propose this. Like I said, a lot doesn't understand what is it and it's difficult for them to digest and pick up. And over one of the weekend, I have the tendency to info-dump people. So over the weekend when I read about it, I just dump the information to our WhatsApp group. I keep dumping the reports, the data and all that. That helps them to understand better.

And then my team leader, which I'm very grateful, the end he also said, I think we should go with this project. Let's try. Let's try with this project. he said that the reason why I think this is a good project because I hear of your peers said all of them will be very happy if this can help to push them to the employment. yeah, then we decide, okay,

let's try with this project. That's how it started and most of all I'm very grateful to my team leader and teammates that they when I info time at them not everyone will read right?

Not everyone will read. Some may ignore. I'm grateful that they read, they located it and they have a new perspective on this. Yeah, that's how.

Nic (21:51)

Awesome. So what would success look like for the project in Malaysia?

Alicia Chui (21:54)

totally not sure yet. We have passed the first presentation of ideation. Right now it is still in uh wireframe stage. But in Malaysia, think aside from the platform, the rate of success would be, we need to work with many partners.

especially because During the ideation stage when I go and ask my job coach and a lot of other people Among all my peers all of them are very excited. They want this However, when I hear from the from my job coach side the challenges is also to help to bridge them with employer. Employer also wanted to hire but they do not but how to bridge the gap of the skill expectation

and also the neurodivergent is the challenge and we see that the key, one of the key also is job coach, job coach help to bridge them. So I will see it's challenging, if we manage to, aside from the technology platform, if we manage to have more support even with job coaches in Malaysia or the government, then that would be.

helpful in the success. I can't say that it will be very successful. We really don't know. It's the first time that we are doing it. But if we manage to bring in the people, then that will be the determining success.

Nic (23:17)

I'd love to step into now, if you could redesign the workplace culture in Malaysia for neuro inclusiveness, what would be the first change that you would put in place?

Alicia Chui (23:27)

the quiet room. I really like the quiet room, a safe space where we can, right before a meltdown we can go in to adjust ourselves.

First would be the quiet room. And then also the lighting. White light is just too bright, very bright. In fact, at home I'm using the yellow light right above me. And also in the communication part, actually in Malaysia...

Quite a number of us, when I asked my peers, are still concerned to disclose

So if it can be a safe place to reduce the stigma and also stereotype, that would be better to help in the communication part so that we neurodivergent will not be worried about being ourselves and also probably I would say the third one, the training part, the training part

To let our colleagues who are neurotypical understand that when we communicate, we can communicate very differently. We are blunt and direct, but that does not mean that we are attacking them. It's just on that job and not the person. oh Because oh I do find that it's a very big challenge. I think the training path for awareness would help in the bridging the gaps.

between us for a more inclusive collaboration, would say. These are the three things that I can think of right away.

Nic (25:04)

No, psychological

safety is a big one, Making sure that people feel safe, safe enough to be able to disclose in the workplace is huge. And it's a very big step for a lot of organizations to take, no matter where they are, whether it's here in Australia or there in Malaysia as well. So

Alicia Chui (25:18)

it's true.

Nic (25:19)

what's one thing that you would want leaders to know about neurodivergent individuals?

Alicia Chui (25:24)

oh for the employers.

be more open and get to know each neurodivergent and don't have an assumption if there's anything that you don't know, just directly speak to them ah so that there's no miscommunication. ah Like if a neurodivergent asks a lot of questions, it's not challenging your authority. And also to understand that right now with AR

AI in this world, everyone is adopting AI, all the companies are adopting AI right? But you won't want your company have solution that is all the same, everyone asks AI and the answer is the same. So for a company to really innovate, hope that employers are more open to hire more neurodivergent as well because we need each other.

We need the job and...

As an employer, see that you need a differentiated solution also, which AI is just an assistant. It's not gonna give. The one who really can come up with out of the box idea and all is the talents, inclusive of whether neurotypical or neurodivergent. I would say you need neurodivergent also to challenge the norm, question the norm, because we always like to ask questions. We ask a lot of questions.

people may think that, are you stupid or are you challenging me? So I would want to let employers know, do help in bridging the gap between all the talents and by doing this, then only you'll be able to have a differentiated solution, which is not everyone asking AI and give you the answer.

Nic (27:01)

So turning the tables then, do you have a question for me?

Alicia Chui (27:04)

Oh, yeah. I wanted to ask you what inspired you to start this podcast.

Nic (27:08)

Yeah,

sure. So I've got two neurodivergent little boys here at home and I started to do a lot of research and investigation on neurodiversity and their conditions, it autism and ADHD, when they were diagnosed. And for me, I wanted to...

make the workplace more inclusive so that when they do enter the workforce in, you know, 10 years time or more, that they don't have the same barriers to entry as some do today. If I can try and make the world a little bit of a better place by through the podcast or through my active work in workplaces, I think that's a good first step.

Alicia Chui (27:48)

And how do you foresee, you wanted to help in promoting this app? How do you see this channel can help to promote and yeah.

Nic (27:57)

So

I'm hoping that the podcast itself will gain an audience with P&C along with directors and managers of.

neurodivergence along with neurotypical individuals so they can gain perspective right so it's it's facilitate the conversation to go hey it's not just about a single individual or you can't just manage a group of individuals the same way everyone is unique everyone has to be managed uniquely so it's it's

Alicia Chui (28:26)

Mmm.

Nic (28:27)

trying to to embrace that conversation and

to share that perspective through conversations with different neurodivergent individuals and professionals.

Alicia Chui (28:35)

when you invite the leaders of the company, are they very open to accept the invite to share more?

Nic (28:43)

I haven't had a chance to sit down with the company themselves just yet on the show around what they've done as in ways of neuro inclusivity just yet. But I am hoping to find some companies that are willing to come on the show and have that conversation.

Alicia Chui (28:57)

That's ⁓ good. you already approach on the Auticon, isn't it?

Nic (29:02)

haven't approached Auticon yet. So Auticon is a company that I'd definitely love to have a chat with. They do a lot of work in the neuro inclusivity training space. And there's a number of other organizations that are doing a lot in that space as well, that I'd be keen to have a chat to as well.

Alicia Chui (29:18)

I wish you success in this

Nic (29:20)

Thank

you. So just before we wrap up, is there anything that you'd love to leave our listeners with today?

Alicia Chui (29:25)

I think I just want to say be open to all...

to all our neurotypical friends is be open and don't be surprised that among your friends actually are neurodivergent because quite a number are under diagnosed and also as for oh my neurodivergent friends it will be also start to be more

Don't be so afraid. Of course, not sure we openly said. You might never know that actually people are more open to accept. It's like, for example, when I joined Gamuda Enabling Academy, then I realized, oh, actually quite a number of companies are more open now. And most of all, do take care of yourself also and get in touch, get connected.

to group that. For me, I'm very grateful for AIM High because through AIM High, then only I got to know Gamuda Enabling Academy. So you're not alone. Do get in touch, find out, get in touch to the community that is near you. Now we online, you can do that so that you get the support and help. Because for me, when I experience the meltdown and also quite a bit,

situation, mutism, is the community that helped me to stand up again and walk again. So yeah, that's my message.

Nic (30:47)

Well, Alicia, thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.

Alicia Chui (30:51)

Thank you so much for the invite