From Diagnosis to Inclusion: Sarah's Story of Neurodiversity at Work

Sarah (00:26)

Thanks for having me, Nic.

Nic (00:27)

I'd love to get a little bit more of an understanding, Being diagnosed so early in life, how did that come about for you?

Sarah (00:33)

So I feel like I should tell the listeners that there is a very very high chance that both my grandparents and my father were ADHD, though they have never been formally diagnosed, their behavior would suggest otherwise. So my mother had this understanding, she was very friendly with the medical fraternity and psychology.

scholars at the time and she had this highly gifted very very enthusiastic hyperactive four-year-old

Nic (00:59)

.

Sarah (01:01)

and when I went to kindergarten obviously there were there were problems behavioral problems in that if I became bored I was very very disruptive and I couldn't understand or couldn't process that other people learnt at a slow pace and luckily or not so luckily

Nic (01:04)

.

Sarah (01:20)

one of the teachers had a psychology background and she took my mother's side and she was like, you know, I think we should get her tested. You know, there's nothing wrong with this, but it would make her education journey a lot smoother moving forward. So mum, mum took me off to a psychologist and yeah, I was diagnosed at four, four and a half.

Nic (01:41)

Wow.

Sarah (01:41)

That's where the journey began.

Nic (01:42)

So looking back then, how did that early diagnosis shape how you grew up?

Sarah (01:47)

I wouldn't say it was easy. think a lot of my fellow peers who've been diagnosed at a later age have been sort of searching for what perhaps is wrong with them. You can't see me doing the quotation marks, but what is wrong with them, why they are struggling, integrating, you know, socially. And it's quite a relief and really hard for them to shift their personalities and their idea of their own personal identity. Whereas for me,

it was always inbuilt and I feel like I was never really allowed to just be a child I wasn't allowed to just be enthusiastic or excited or have a sugar high it was always that's the result of your condition and we need to manage this we need to control this you need to tone down was my mother's favorite phrase going up so there was always this element of conformity shame

the expectation of academic performance as I got older to really reach my potential that people had told my mother I was gifted at a very young age. I don't think it's very normal for most six year olds to have an IQ test.

Nic (02:52)

I would say it's probably not very common, that's for sure.

So, I mean, you've just mentioned that you were classified as gifted. Were you ever formally diagnosed as twice exceptional? Yes.

Sarah (03:03)

Yes, yes. And

I used to spend my school time off rather than playing in the garden or playing sports. My mother would send me to these sort of academic cognitive boot camps where we would do pattern recognition exercises and keep our brains active and primed for the school terms.

Nic (03:22)

Wow. So then if we shift forward then to be when you entered the workforce.

How was that experience for you knowing that you were neurodivergent and twice exceptional? How did that shape entering the workforce?

Sarah (03:35)

It wasn't at all easy. think going through university and doing a double degree in engineering and science, I had a lot of structure. I didn't have a lot of free time. My time was rigorously planned and I knew exactly that's how I managed my condition by having that routine. And then all of a sudden I got into the workforce, I was expected to do, you know, seven and a half hour days with very minimal supervision or guidance. I was just left to myself.

In

hindsight, having 10 years of professional experience, that would be great now.

Nic (04:04)

.

Sarah (04:06)

Like micromanagement is one of my biggest pet peeves. So having that, you know, experience, I would greatly value it. But at the time when I was so eager to prove myself to learn to be nurtured in a different environment of which I had no idea of what working was like, it was very, very difficult. I didn't do the usual grad program.

which I should have in hindsight. That would have given me the structure that I yearned. Instead I was left with a very hands-off boss who was just like, you'll figure it out, just watch what other people do. You know, make up your own job description, whatever you feel you want to do, go for it. Which was very disruptive and I actually ended up with depression at the time because...

of how drastically my life had shifted in such a small period of time.

Nic (04:52)

Yeah, I guess it seems to be becoming more more aware that a lot of people that are neurodivergent do typically

come off with being diagnosed with depression or anxiety or other things like that which can be a challenge as well. So if we look at how you just mentioned that your structure was kind of not there in the beginning, what would a good structure look like for you as someone that's neurodivergent to support a neurodivergent individual?

Sarah (05:24)

I think I go too far the other way. I think that because I was diagnosed at such a young age and my mother was very... I don't want to use the word controlling but she wanted the best for me. She knew what my capabilities were. She didn't want me to go off the rails. She... So she was very, very strict with me and you know...

I

think I developed that habit for myself. So now, for instance, a good routine for me is waking up at five, going for a run so I can get up all of that pent up energy, think clearly for the day, have a good nutritious breakfast journal, do some sort of hobby, whether it's building models or playing an instrument or drawing, or just something

Nic (05:58)

you

Sarah (06:00)

that gives me a bit of lift moving into the day and also allows me to regulate.

prior to being thrust into a highly social, very stressful work environment. That's super important for me. And then also having time to decompress at the end of the day. I know that when I'm not regulated, for instance, I'll grab a few drinks after work, I'll listen to loud music, I'll scroll on my phone, just really dopamine seeking behavior. Rather than, okay, we need to put the phone away, we need to go have a bath or work out or...

just have complete quiet time to replenish those energy levels and then an early night to start it again. But for instance, right now I'm operating off like four hours of sleep because I do not have that routine in place right now.

Nic (06:41)

Yeah.

It can be difficult to, I guess, follow those routines all the time, especially

as things shift in and out of your life, be it work, school, all the life changes that are constantly going on. And you're right, dopamine is a huge thing, right? People are either constantly doom scrolling on their phone or wanting to try and gain that level of adrenaline from

Sarah (07:11)

Is it?

Nic (07:11)

elsewhere, be it motorbike riding, jumping out of planes.

going to concerts, trying anything that they can to try and gain that dopamine hit to make them feel good in that period of time. I'd be curious, do you mask in the workplace?

Sarah (07:27)

Masking is an interesting concept to me because I don't believe I ever really did it but to some extent I think I emulate the people I talk to. It's very very easy for me to create a bond one-on-one with someone because

Lately,

I've been struggling with the idea that perhaps it's not a genuine connection and I'm just mirroring people or the best parts of themselves to form that connection, to form that level of trust with them. So for instance, I prefer having all of my meetings in person, one on one in a quiet environment. I find that gets the best out of me, gets the best out of my compatriot, but that's not possible

Nic (08:02)

you

Sarah (08:03)

in, you know, a manufacturing environment where I work or engineering project management.

A lot of the time I'm faced with 10 people in a room talking over each other, yelling and it doesn't go well and for me to cope I find it better to retreat, to become more aloof, to become more formal and while that works to minimize the emotional expenditure I have to accommodate. It doesn't necessarily make me appear very engaged.

or approachable.

Nic (08:35)

So how does that then impact your work you

Sarah (08:38)

Some people like it, some people understand that, I will never get part

of the phrase. She's always a third party She understands that this is not an emotional element. She's very rational. She is able to take the high road when things get messy. Some people like that style. Senior management likes that style. Middle management, middle management with rather I...

get in the fray, fix out the mess, get my hands dirty, know, call people on, you know,

Nic (09:08)

Yeah.

Sarah (09:10)

bad behavior. Middle management I do not find are...

educated on neurodiversity nor are they willing to accommodate it. They would rather everyone just toes the line and fits in.

Nic (09:20)

Hmm.

So is, I guess that comes back to, know, do organizations need to be training their staff on neurodivergence?

Sarah (09:30)

Absolutely.

I have a very low patience threshold for this mainly because I have no shame around my condition. I know what I bring to an organization. I know the skill sets that make me a unique individual for hire and I will tell my incoming boss I will probably be the most difficult person you ever manage. That's not conceit. That's self-awareness. And I say, you know, these are the resources I would advise.

I

think it would be great if you could reach out to HR to maybe understand the condition, to maybe get some hands-on training.

Nic (10:02)

.

Sarah (10:03)

I also provide them with a SWOT analysis of how they can best support me. Or I talk to them, I'm like, hey, look, I'm not feeling particularly regulated, you know, this week. These are the things I need to do to cope. That'll mean, you know, limiting my in-person time, whether that'll be working from home, which my organization doesn't allow, despite, you know, the changes.

as a society we've gone through with COVID. And it would just be great if they could take that on board and actually be interested and curious in this and willing to get the best out of everyone on their team rather than just being like, you're very emotional today. you're giving out waves of tension.

Nic (10:42)

Okay so that brings me back to a bit another question that I'd be curious to get your input on which is accommodations.

So as you've mentioned that, be it your workplace, doesn't have many accommodations in place for you, is that something that you've approached with them around supporting you as a neurodivergent individual

Sarah (11:02)

yes, yes, I find HRs really really great in this and the EHS in general are very educated, they're very accommodating, they're like of course if you need to work from home go for it. Meanwhile my boss demands at least a week's notice even if we have like a car emergency, a medical emergency, he wants advance notice which is not possible right. I'm not fortunate enough to have children yet but

I

do not see my current workplace or my current profession being accommodating for female engineers or project managers. I would have to change careers if I wanted to start a family.

Nic (11:36)

So I guess what would some good accommodations look like then, be it for yourself or for others that are in, be it your type of work, being engineering? Thank

Sarah (11:48)

Obviously

everyone's different they have their own preferences but for me I think it's really around do we have flexibility to work from home you know if if you have a day where all you will be doing is writing documents as a neurodiverse person the very worst thing you can do is be in an open plan highly noisy

Nic (12:05)

you

Sarah (12:07)

overly stimulating environment. If you want to concentrate on actually getting a brief out or getting a presentation made or you know, finishing up that commissioning report, you do not need external influences. I would also say having private rooms, not just meeting rooms you can book up, but actual quiet spaces. You know, even in the old days, you used to at least have a cubicle where you had privacy. If I tilt my head oddly, I can see the guy sitting opposite me.

Nic (12:32)

Yeah.

Sarah (12:33)

There's no

privacy, which makes me feel paranoid all day, every day. So half the time I will just take my laptop and go find a quiet spot in a different department to go work. I think also just understanding the ebb and flow of people and the stresses they have in their life and actually getting to know your team, not just expecting them to be a cog.

You know, because some people can be really high performers, but you know, if their mother's sick and their children are playing up and you know, they might have other pressures at home or their health or they're not going to be at their best, you know, and it's for you as a manager to look at this and go, something's up, this is not normal. How can I be more accommodating and have that flexibility?

Nic (13:13)

Absolutely. So I'd be curious then, what would you see as being true inclusion in the workplace?

Sarah (13:19)

I

mean not expecting everyone to be the same would be nice. Not expecting everyone... I think having a blanket set of rules for engagement would be nice where all individuals are held to the same levels of standards. I think that's one thing that neurodiverse people find incredibly triggering is that we have this honesty and justice value and we get...

Nic (13:30)

Okay.

Sarah (13:43)

very very triggered when we see how some people are treat because that whether they're part of the boys club or are they really funny or you know people will treat them differently and give them allowances and then the person who's really really good at their job but they may be not as social maybe they don't go up for kebab Fridays with the team you know whether they're managing their own social anxiety or their own neurodivergence they penalize for that

So I think having a space where everyone feels psychologically safe and having that relationship with their managers to talk about concerns is really important.

Nic (14:17)

No, couldn't agree more. So we've touched be it very high level on inclusion itself.

I'd be curious to get your take on the communication styles and how communicating with different, it either neurodivergent or neurotypical individuals plays a part in the way that you work and your work environment as well.

Sarah (14:39)

This

is something that I've struggled with for a long time. think I used to come at it with a very... like I was a champion debater. I loved the fight. I loved using rational argument to win a

But in the workplace it often doesn't matter if you're logical or you're right or this is the way you know regulations are set up we have to abide by them.

if your facility owner does not want to do this and they have never done it, there's no way you're going to convince them by being like, well, this is what we have to do. And unfortunately, having personal rapport with them becomes incredibly important. And for that, I think it's...

It's crucial that you can actually have access one-on-one with those people to create that base level

Nic (15:19)

you

Sarah (15:20)

of understanding, which is not so easy, especially in a digital environment when people are all over the place where a lot of people, my pet peeve right now is we're forced to be in the workplace, but we're all doing teams calls.

not video calls, just teams calls. So people are multitasking. Most people can't multitask. we're literally in the same office. I can see the backs of their heads and we're having a team's call. This makes no sense. We should be in a meeting room face to face, you know, working this out. So we all understand we're on the same team. and I think communication differently plays a part in that, but standards for

Nic (15:55)

You You

Sarah (16:00)

communicating have dropped significantly. don't know whether it was just COVID or that's just the way the world and now I mean if you sit on the train you're not making contact with people everyone's on their phones everyone's got their headphones in no one's engaging and if you do engage people think there's something wrong with you. Society in general has become a lot more less communicative and a lot more antagonistic.

Nic (16:25)

There's definitely an element to that, right? So there's a lot of research that shows that since the dawn of the technology era and the smartphone, that people are becoming less engaged in society and more engaged in technology, which plays a big part in, be it mental health in general.

Sarah (16:45)

could wiggle.

Nic (16:48)

It's, yeah, it's not ideal. I'd

Sarah (16:51)

you

Nic (16:54)

love to get your take on if you could be it redesign one piece of the modern workplace, what would that be to suit neurodivergence?

Sarah (17:03)

I'd

get rid of open plan officers.

I don't think bright white light, no access to a view, no ability to just go for a walk, know, having to constantly be engaged. For instance, if I, some people were like, we'll just wear noise canceling headphones, right? So if I do that, my boss will literally touch me to get my attention. I don't like being touched. I think that's common for a lot of neurodiverse people. don't generally, that is a boundary a lot of us don't cross.

Nic (17:31)

Hmm.

Sarah (17:33)

So having that in my space, you know, causes a bit of a panic reaction in me. So I would say, you know, having these workplaces where you could actually find that privacy, you could be in the open if you wanted to be in the open. I like plants, so a bit of greenery never hurts anywhere. Definitely more privacy. I think my biggest pet peeve is the lack of privacy.

Nic (17:53)

Yep. Okay. That's good. Thank you for sharing. I became, do you have a question for me?

So. Okay.

Sarah (17:59)

You and I obviously met during our postgraduate studies and we clicked very, very quickly. I think we both recognized that we were both neurodivergent individuals navigating this often difficult world. And for me, you are a very calming influence. And I think we have very different takes on the world. I'm quite jaded and cynical at the moment, whereas you are able to keep your optimism.

and have this idea that you can change the world for the better. And I'm just wondering how you sustain that. You know, when you read the news and you get all these stories of how nobody cares about humanity anymore, or there's, you know, less and less interactions. And I know that you work from home majority of the time and are digital. How do you maintain connection?

Nic (18:51)

Maintaining connections is one of the hardest things for me.

I spend a lot of time with my team in video calls, which can be a challenge, but at the same time, because we're across the entire eastern seaboard of Australia, it's the best way for us to communicate. But we don't leave it just be it having video calls, we try and have a little bit of banter throughout the entire day so that we're not only being

be it work colleagues, but we can kind of socialize as a little bit of a lighter touch at the same time. I try and avoid watching the news as much as humanly possible. And the reason I do that is so that I don't get kind of pushed into a spiral of the world is on fire.

Sarah (19:33)

Mm-hmm.

Nic (19:34)

Even though I'm very well aware that the world is extremely on fire.

I mean, even more recently, you know, in Australia, neurodiversity and the NDIS taking kids with autism off the NDIS to put them in a new program.

Sarah (19:47)

It makes no sense.

Nic (19:49)

It makes no sense. don't I mean, look, I can appreciate that there were a bunch of people abusing the NDIS and they should absolutely have their funding removed.

Because you shouldn't be going out and buying motorbikes or God knows whatever else using the funding. It's designed for supports not designed That's right

Sarah (20:06)

like one bad egg poisoning the badge. Doesn't that come down to more of a need for auditing and maintaining vigilance rather than let's change the entire program, which has benefited so many people.

Nic (20:19)

That's right, so I think that there's

I mean, and they have implemented a level of auditing now where you have to mandatorily upload every single invoice that you do for NDIS, which is good. And they're moving a lot more of the self-managed individuals onto plan managed to try and avoid misuse of the program. But I guess the coming back to your question,

how do I stay so optimistic? I think it, I don't know whether it was because of my upbringing and be it or whether it was just resilience in general being built over a period of time. Definitely didn't have the easiest childhood being being bullied right through high school and primary school so I guess I built a tolerance of you know the world can be a better place but

you know, how do I change it? And then since the boys were diagnosed at a very early age as well, it's kind of been my push or a drive for me to go, I want to make the world better for my kids so that they don't have to grow up in a world that is on fire and they don't have that level of support that they will need in the workforce in the future.

Sarah (21:25)

So you think becoming a parent has definitely given you that purpose and that mission to show them

Nic (21:30)

It's def...

Sarah (21:31)

that life can be better.

Nic (21:32)

it's definitely helping, that's for sure.

Sarah (21:35)

I would also ask you, how do you socialize? Because you and I have obviously socialized on many occasions in groups and whether you've said it outright or not, it's like you can very much see the difference in my personality, depending on whom I'm interacting with and what kind of

interactions you know anything fueled by alcohol will completely change the dynamic as well. Whereas you seem to always stay relatively stable and stability is something that I covered.

Nic (22:04)

For the most part, I normally try and socialize in small groups.

I try and avoid large social gatherings because the noise, especially now after COVID, the noise is just far too much for me. Typically it's, you know, I'll invite people over for dinner or we'll go out for dinner somewhere or catching up one-on-one with individuals as well or with the kiddos. But it's not...

Yeah, it's not generally sort of the large group sort of come to the pub and drink anymore. That sort of changed, well that changed during COVID anyway, but I was never really into going out and drinking with mates and things. It was always, hey, let's go see a concert or let's go see a movie and have some dinner and have a chat. It was never, you know, let's go out wild and drink anyway.

Sarah (22:51)

So how do you navigate

those situations where you have to do that? You know, it's like an end of term social or, you know, like some sort of ball or a fundraising event or where you're expected to go.

Nic (23:05)

I turn up. Whether I'll engage with everybody is a different question. So for me, it's being comfortable to socialize with those that I know.

engage in conversation that might be in a small group setting in that social area but I typically don't engage with those that I'm not comfortable with or that I don't really know well. How's it?

Sarah (23:25)

Okay, so you don't go out of your way to try and make new connections.

Nic (23:30)

It's not an easy thing for me. It makes me uncomfortable to try and do that. It's something that I'm trying to force myself into more as be it

That's one thing that I've been told you need to do to get a new job or to just to know more information is you need to network and networking is the key. But

Sarah (23:50)

networking is hell for new divergent people.

Nic (23:52)

that's exactly right. So as a someone that is identifying as neurodivergent, I'm not formally diagnosed yet. It's very uncomfortable for me to negotiate, you know,

meeting new people in an uncomfortable environment, but it's something that I'm trying to force myself to do over time. Okay.

Sarah (24:11)

And I think the way we interact in that sort of area

is different. I will go outwards and I'll like just project energy, you know, whether it's like bantering with someone because I feel uncomfortable or laughing or, you know, using alcohol to kind of ease that uncomfort. Whereas I think you have a much more sustainable way of doing things when you have to be in these environments.

you know, sticking to those one or two, having a deep conversation, you know, going to the bar, getting a drink, nursing that drink, I think is also key.

Nic (24:43)

Yeah, I mean, the it's understanding your social battery too, right? So it's how much time can you spend?

the jumping between multiple conversations as opposed to if you're staying within the same conversation your social battery can potentially last a little bit longer. think yes.

Sarah (25:00)

And think you also know when to end a night. Like, okay, I've been here two hours, that's enough for me. I know that this is the one time I'm gonna see these people. I'm good, two hours is fine. Whereas I'll kind of get there, I'm like, well, I drove all the way in, you know, I need to really make this worth it.

Nic (25:16)

Yeah I guess

There's many different ways of looking at it. Some people call it spoon theory, some people call it f%#k bucks. There's so

Sarah (25:22)

Yeah.

Nic (25:24)

many different things that you can call it. Others be it call it the social battery, right? But it's how much energy can you expel over a period of time before you reach that limit and you just you need to go back to lying on a couch and doom scrolling or binge watching a series on Netflix or

stan or whatever else just so that you can come back to a level of normality or recharge right

Sarah (25:49)

Mm.

Nic (25:49)

and that recharge is is different for everybody.

Sarah (25:51)

Yeah, I was going to say, what are common things that you do to recharge?

Nic (25:56)

So for me I struggle to sit still most of the time. Of an evening I'm more

Sarah (26:02)

Mm-hmm

Nic (26:04)

than more than happy to flake on the couch and

watch hours and hours of a TV series.

Sarah (26:10)

But that doesn't replace the battery.

Nic (26:12)

No, I would much rather be out in the mountains doing some trail running or going to a gym and just burning off some energy or going in riding some rollerblades or cycling somewhere because it's being outside, being out in nature and just having that

Zen or meditative state where you just you're not really thinking about anything but thoughts come in and thoughts go out.

Sarah (26:37)

Yeah. And I think a lot of people talk about that sense of flow. You know, for

Nic (26:40)

Yeah.

Sarah (26:41)

me, it's doing art, it's building something, it's playing music, it's going for long meandering walks. There's just something about getting off our phones, getting out into nature, you know, getting some fresh air and not being like pent up in our heads with all this excess energy.

Nic (26:57)

Absolutely. It's definitely something that I thoroughly enjoy doing. So if it's a wonderful day, I try and get outside for a couple of hours so that I can enjoy the sun.

It's not only good for your health, gaining that vitamin D, but it's also good for your mental health at the same time. you

Sarah (27:14)

It's funny, a friend actually sent me

this Instagram reel which you know, kind of helpful because more and more people are becoming aware of how useful and how quickly we can share information that is actually beneficial. But it was talking about natural sources of dopamine, right? Like running, sunlight, lifting weights, cold showers, saving the moment, working on your goals.

You know, not checking your phone, increasing your protein, getting good sleep, meditating, dancing. None of this is technology-fuelled.

Nic (27:46)

No, it's not. It's all known through history. It's, you know, it's studied through a lot of Eastern cultures, you

Sarah (27:54)

Mm.

Nic (27:55)

know, build this into their daily routines. And we wonder why they live a lot longer than most of us do in the Western society. It's because they're building meditation and mindfulness and not being

connected to social media 24 seven. Yep.

Sarah (28:13)

Exactly, I'm reading this book right now called Ikigai. It's like finding your love's purpose and it's got so many

restorative helpful hints in that book. It's not just about this concept but also the longevity

Nic (28:27)

you

Sarah (28:28)

of the Japanese population and the islanders and of course I watch a lot of things on the like the blue zones and all of that comes around to camaraderie and that sense of community and experiencing nature in all of its seasons and you know...

simplifying life rather than constantly living in this feedback loop of competition and one-upmanship.

Nic (28:47)

Yeah, I mean it's interesting but how do you then bring that into a workplace as well? Like that's a challenge.

Sarah (28:53)

And that's what I battle with.

Nic (28:54)

Yeah, that's definitely a challenge. So before we wrap today, I'd love to ask is there anything else that you'd love to share with the listeners or to give the listeners before we finish today?

Sarah (29:05)

I think

everyone's journey is different. think a lot of people mask in different ways, a lot of people seek dopamine in different ways.

Nic (29:11)

you

Sarah (29:13)

What might be acceptable for some people is not acceptable for others. It's all about that self-awareness. You know, where are you in your journey today, right here in this moment? Not what does your best self look like, but also how can you support yourself today where you are and not judge yourself for, you know, the spiral you're in.

And this is something that I don't do particularly well, but I am very gifted to have friends like you who will be that reinforcing bolstering base for me. And they're like, you're not always like this. You know, remember last week when you were like doing 15 projects at one time, kicking goals. You had like organized the rest of your life. You'd booked an international trip. You know, you just finished your masters. Like remember where you were a week ago.

Just because you are here in the now because you don't have a routine because you're spiraling doesn't mean you always be here. And

Nic (30:01)

That's

Sarah (30:02)

it's all about knowing what works for you as an individual, what replenishes your battery. And that's a journey of self-expression and self-discovery. And it takes time. You know, reading 15 books on the subject will make you more informed, but it won't give you all the answers.

Nic (30:18)

No, definitely won't. I mean, there's so many books that you can read to gain that self-awareness or insight, but...

You still need to take the time to explore yourself and your own life before you can kind of move forward.

Sarah (30:31)

Exactly.

Nic (30:31)

Awesome. Well, thank you Sarah very, very much for your time today. And we'll speak to you again soon.

Sarah (30:39)

Appreciate it. Have a good one, Nic.