Understanding ADHD and Nutrition: Insights from Annika Angelo

where she explores the intersection of neuroscience and nutrition, neurodivergent lived experience with a master's degree in health psychology and nearly a decade of work across mental health and behaviour nutrition. She's known for translating complex research into practical insight. After reaching a breaking point in her own relationship with food in 2025, Annika began developing what

She calls a metabolic communication model of ADHD, a framework that explores how disrupted signals between the brain and the body may shape ADHD experiences with food, focus, and burnout. She sits at the intersection of science, self-trust, and helping neurodivergent people reconnect with their bodies rather than simply trying to follow more rules.

Annika is also the author of Eat To Focus and the host of the Nutritional Mental Health podcast. Annika, welcome to the Inclusive Shift.

Annika Angelo (01:34.573)

Thanks so much for having me on. I'm just so excited to talk about literally everything we have planned.

Nic (01:39.244)

Absolutely pleasure. Annika, I'd love to dive, before we dive into the science, I'd love to start with your own journey. So when you first started noticing your connection between ADHD and food in your life, how was that like?

Annika Angelo (01:58.458)

Honestly, one of the first experiences was on TikTok. So I started my platform mainly on Instagram. I also started a bit on TikTok and I was talking about how I was experiencing food because to that point I was just discussing the science behind how different nutrients impact ADHD, the science about how we metabolize things differently. It's all very interesting.

But then somebody asked me about, well, this is all interesting, right? But why am I having a hard time? And that got me realizing that I've never talked about that aspect before. And I also never really asked myself that either because I'm a person who lives in my head a lot. I feel like you might experience that too. We love data, science, like to make things make sense.

and some things don't make sense. Like why is it so hard to simply eat food sometimes? Or why do we overeat food sometimes? so that's, I'd say the beginning point to where I started thinking more about the behavioral aspect of food.

Nic (03:19.41)

No, it's, it's definitely an interesting, kind of it's, it's, it's interesting that food, especially for someone with ADHD, you know, you're right. I have had issues where I was just constantly eating and I don't know why I'm eating. It's just, is it boredom? Is it just the sensory situation where, you know, I'm going, I'm enjoying the crunch of some chips or crisps. but it's

at the same time trying to be consciously aware, I don't feel hungry, do I actually need to be eating?

Annika Angelo (03:54.69)

Yeah, and that is the question that not enough people ask themselves, but truly the question that's underneath that is why is it so hard for us to even ask that question? So there's two layers to this, right? It's the fact that it is harder for us, but it's also the fact that it's harder for us to even notice it.

So for example, with my husband, he, whenever he's hungry, he will just eat and when he's full, he will stop eating. For me, I've gotten slowly to that point, but it is very difficult for me to not complete a like entire pint of ice cream in a week. Or it's hard for me to, if I have food on my plate, all of a sudden I'll get that ick and be like, ugh, I don't want to eat this. And...

just stop eating altogether when in reality like, I still am hungry but it doesn't feel like it.

And so that's what we call interoception.

Nic (05:03.656)

So then you've spent years studying ADHD nutrition, but then earlier in 2025, you described reaching that breaking point for yourself. What happened there?

Annika Angelo (05:14.711)

Yeah, burnout. Let's call it that. Really, at that point, I was growing so fast on social media and I was being seen in a way that I've never been seen before. And I was also putting a lot of pressure on myself that I did not know I was putting on myself. And that's part of interoception. With ADHD, with autism, you...

are at a disadvantage for understanding your internal state. And it seems odd because a lot of us are really good at understanding our brains, right? It feels like I understand what I'm thinking about. understand like where, like I feel and my intuition. And yet we believe that the task is the same effort as a different task when in reality it is very different. So.

taking just food as an example. In my brain, going to the grocery store is basically the same amount of effort as eating food. Or doing this large task for a second brand is the same amount of effort as opening my emails. And so basically what happened was I was overestimating myself while simultaneously feeling like I wasn't doing enough because

Again, everything feels like it's supposed to be the same amount of effort. I don't know if you resound at all with that experience.

Nic (06:48.621)

Yeah, I definitely do. know, certain tasks often feel like they're so huge, in some instances and in reality, they're actually quite small and it could be, you know, replying to an email, but I put it off for several hours or even sometimes days. And it's just like, it could have been a 15 minute task or finishing a report that

I've been writing to provide some insight and I for whatever reason keep putting it off and I don't know why. And it's like, well, I know it shouldn't take too long, but then I've tried and prioritise other things that are currently constantly coming at me to go, no, this is more of a priority, focus on that first.

Annika Angelo (07:41.282)

Yeah, that's exactly what you just said there. That's the other issue of everything because it isn't just the task blindness. It's also our blindness to how much effort we're taking by thinking about the task and how much effort we're taking by avoiding those tasks and working ourselves up, like motivating ourselves to do the tasks. And that's where it's important to give ourselves grace.

even though we maybe don't feel like we deserve it because our brains are working so much harder than the general person simply because we're actually wasting energy trying to do the thing and thinking about the thing before even doing it whereas another person will just simply do the thing because it's just what they have to do and so that's why burnout first off is very common in

people who are autistic or have ADHD, A, because we underestimate ourselves and overestimate ourselves at the same time, but we're also using a bunch of brain energy to do a lot of different things that we're not aware of. And so that is what happened to me. And during that time, I didn't realize it. And it was my husband who pointed it out because I was starting to feel

very aversive to food and having more food sensitivities, feeling a lot of big feelings around food, like wanting to throw my plate on the ground. And that's not normal. So that is where I noticed these are signals. I don't actually feel this way, but my body has been feeling something for too long and now it's trying to tell me in a way.

because it hasn't been able to tell me through my brain.

Annika Angelo (09:37.53)

And so at that point, I was talking to one of my friends and basically just stopped doing Instagram, stopped doing my business for a whole month and tried to refocus. And it was really important to do that. And I obviously very lucky that I'm able to do that. Owning a business does have its perks.

Nic (10:02.624)

It can be a definite challenge to firstly to recognize that you're going through that, but at the same time, having that opportunity to just step back and hit pause to give you that ability to have that space to reconnect with yourself and your body. It leads me into my perfectly into my next section where you've developed something called the metabolic communication model for ADHD.

Can you walk us through what that idea means in simple terms?

Annika Angelo (10:34.839)

Yeah, this is actually one of my favorite things because it came out of that month because I was finally able to be creative and I was finally able to take a step back and integrate all of my personal experience with the science that I've been reading. So before I dive into this, I want to first make it clear that I have not yet submitted this to a journal yet. I have it all completed. I am just...

a type of person who sits on things for very long until it feels perfect. And then maybe I submit it, but I will. It's my goal this year. I will do it. All that to say, it has not been peer reviewed. However, I have spent a lot of time on it, a lot of research. Obviously my last like five years in specifically this field has brought a lot of the information together.

So the metabolic communication model of ADHD is a model that describes how our brains and our bodies use essentially dopamine, but how they communicate with each other to shift and tell each other what is happening. The reason why I developed it was because I read this paper and it clicked everything into place. And it was a paper that described

the differences in metabolic signals in the gut with ADHD versus non ADHD. And those different signals were indicative of a chronically stressed system. However, the different aspects, like the people are not actually stressed or they don't feel like they're stressed. The brain doesn't look like it's under stress. Sure, there is some extra oxidative stress, but it's still

typically not horribly gone wrong. And so there's this disconnect between what the body is telling us versus what the brain is telling us. And this disconnect means one of two things. The first is that it just is a random metabolic function of ADHD. People with ADHD maybe just have a harder time producing different things.

Annika Angelo (13:01.111)

The second one is that the signaling between the body of ADHD and the brain and the brain and the body are not communicating effectively to the point where the body thinks it's under stress and the brain doesn't. And that's what we just talked about, how it feels like everything is easy and yet we still burn out and we don't understand why. And these changes in...

these different signals really, I believe, can affect how our brain develops. And that's what this model suggests. It suggests that there is a continuity of different types of ADHD. Some people might have a more metabolically triggered ADHD where it's based more on stress signals that are not getting

connected. A different one is more developmentally ADHD where it's more in the brain versus more in the body. However, all of it is still on the same continuum and this would explain why some people respond better to stimulants, why some people respond poorly to stimulants, why some people experience exacerbated symptoms during different stages of their lives. It also explains why we have different

comorbidities with ADHD because the current model, it can't necessarily explain that because it's a brain model. It's a neurodevelopmental model. It's not a whole body model. And that's why I love mine because it integrates all of the current research we have on the metabolics and the brain at the same time.

Nic (14:55.706)

That's so curious. So then what happens when the brain and the body aren't commuting so well? How does that show up in everyday life?

Annika Angelo (15:07.865)

How it shows up in everyday life is different, of course, for every single person. For me, it shows up in, I don't remember to go to the bathroom sometimes, and I will get a signal that I have a headache, and I'll just override that signal, excuse me, because I feel like I just need to finish my work. And then eventually I'll go.

And that's also common with ADHD. In fact, there was a recent 2025 study that found we can pretty accurately diagnose ADHD or predict if a person has ADHD simply by their urine samples. Fascinating stuff. I believe it was 94 % accuracy. And so, I know, isn't that crazy?

Nic (15:57.112)

That's insane. Like, I'd be really curious to, you'll have to pass me that study. I'd really love to read it. Um, cause that that's wild.

Annika Angelo (16:06.657)

I know, but I think that's a great indication of how we don't communicate well with our bodies or how we think we might, but we are not actually.

I call, so we've described this as interoception. I haven't actually defined interoception specifically, so let me do that here. Interoception is the ability to have signals from your body and integrate them. It's the ability to know what your body is asking you and then to do it. For a lot of people with ADHD, we have distorted cues or delayed cues or

We are just simply too distracted to hear those cues. And so for a typical person, you'll get a cue from your body for a basic need, whether that is to take a break, to go eat something, to go take a nap or go take a walk. You maybe need to use the bathroom, any basic need. They'll get that signal and then they'll be able to respond to it immediately. And so it's just a little hump and then you're back to baseline.

For ADHD, because we get those very either delayed, distorted, or we're distracted cues, it tells us, it gives us our signal, but we don't hear it. And then what happens if you don't hear something? It's gonna increase in intensity. And so it keeps increasing in intensity until we maybe start to hear it and then maybe we decide to respond to it. But then since you're so at this top,

it's gonna be a large decrease. The best example I can think of here is a person who you know you need to eat and you're like, maybe I'll eat later. Or you feel like you should eat, but you're like, I don't really want to eat or don't feel like I need to eat. And then all of a sudden you go into shutdown mode and you're sitting on your floor and you're like, my gosh, I can't do anything. That is how it is delayed.

Annika Angelo (18:20.383)

or it was not, it didn't tell us hard enough, or we just didn't listen to it. Honestly, that's what happens a lot. We just don't listen to our bodies. So it's something that we can cultivate, but with ADHD, it's still not going to be to the extent that a neurotypical person will, which is unfortunate, but it doesn't mean it's impossible and dumb to try.

Nic (18:48.052)

No, absolutely not. I often, if I'm doing something, be it out in the garden or with the kids, I'll often forget to eat or I'll put it off because it's like, I'm really enjoying what I'm doing right now. And then it'll get to a point within within the day. And I'm like, well, I feel really woozy or what's going on. It's like, oh, I haven't eaten yet. Okay, I need to go eat something. Otherwise, I'm not going to be able to function for the rest of the day.

Annika Angelo (19:13.985)

Yeah and some of those signals can be even different as well. Like I said a headache for me is usually a large sign that I didn't do a basic need. But wooziness that's a huge one too. What I tell people nowadays is the second you hear that inner voice tell you maybe I should do this that's not a beginning signal that's a late signal and it means you need to do it now.

that's just a really good rule of thumb I found for myself to be helpful but also anyone who starts to integrate that they're like, wow, my gosh. I feel a little bit more in control of my life. I feel like my symptoms are a little bit more managed. I feel like my body's not betraying me all the time. I feel like I have more emotional regulation and it's all just because we have a new rule. You listen when you hear that like thought.

concert it a late signal and act on it as soon as you can.

Nic (20:21.318)

That's sound advice right there. So one of the interesting things I find with your work then is that you talk a lot about removing shame from how neurodivergent people approach food. Why do you think shame is such a big part of ADHD nutrition conversation?

Annika Angelo (20:40.217)

Honestly, I had a better answer and then I just had therapy like a month ago and it shifted this whole answer so you all get this new answer. Because I didn't realize until that session how deep my shame with ADHD went. I didn't even realize I was talking negatively to myself for all of these years. And I mean that negative talk was something as simple as

Why didn't you turn off the car before you turned it back, like before you drove? Because I had it on auto start and then I had a weird thing that happened with the car. And I was blaming myself for the weird thing that happened with the car. When in reality, it was just a weird thing. If you leave your car on auto start and you go, at least for my car, it doesn't do weird things. But I was blaming myself.

for not having everything together. And I was talking to my therapist about that and she was like, okay, now you can hear this. And now I hear it a lot, let me tell ya. There is a large blaming person inside of my brain who's trying to keep me put together and...

And I believe a lot of it comes from living with undiagnosed ADHD because you have to try your hardest to fit in. You have to try your hardest to do everything to seem normal, even though you don't know that's what you're doing. And it's really hard because A, you don't know what you're doing. You don't know why things feel different. And honestly, with ADHD, you don't even know that it feels different until you really start to listen to yourself.

And that now is why I believe it's really important to reduce shame because it reinforces our behaviors and our views of the world as we are not good enough for the world. We are not the right flavor for the world. And when you have that in your head, it makes life so much harder and it makes life so much less joyful. And I think ADHD,

Annika Angelo (23:03.829)

are lot of us are such a joyful bunch.

The other aspect is fun and play. That is a large, important value for ADHD. Even if you don't think that you're a person who values playing fun, I didn't think I was until I figured out that I have that person in my brain being very negative towards me. I realized I do actually value fun and spontaneity, and you cannot have that if you are shaming yourself. You can't enjoy things when you're shaming yourself.

I'm so sorry, I had a no. Let me just restart that really quick so you can edit it as needed.

Nic (23:41.453)

you need to take that.

Nic (23:46.861)

That's okay. That's okay.

Annika Angelo (23:53.476)

But yeah, you can't enjoy yourself when you're shaming yourself. And when you lose the joy, that is where burnout comes in.

because now you're constantly monitoring everything else. So that is my current answer. Previous answer is also kind of similar. When we shame ourselves or when we have all these rules, it just makes it so much harder to actually do the things that are good for us. Because yeah, when we have all these rules, what are we gonna actually do? Not follow the rules and then feel too overwhelmed.

Nic (24:35.98)

It's curious because for me and in my brain, I struggle with not following rules. I'm very ethically bound. And what I find is that there are decisions that I've made in the past that will constantly replay in my head. Even though that they're in the past and they're well in the past, then there's nothing that I can choose to do about them now. It's still

whatever reason takes me back to there. It's like, okay, let that go, move on, continue and enjoy what's here and now and stop thinking about the past as well.

Annika Angelo (25:18.401)

Yeah, I love that. That is basically what I view as my inner critical self. That one who just keeps up bringing those things in the past and also brings up things that could potentially happen in the future that I'm going to do wrong. I've learned, and you might have learned this too, just tell them thank you. Like, you so much for bringing this up, but...

I already learned what I need to learn from this, so we're good. And just keep doing that until they quiet down and realize like, yeah, it's okay, we're good, I trust you.

Nic (25:50.216)

Yeah. Yeah, so sometimes it's the acknowledgement and let it go. Sometimes it's the sound therapy with, you know, certain frequencies to try and reduce that level of anxiety and then jump back.

Annika Angelo (26:09.741)

I love sound therapy. I use bilateral beats so much.

Nic (26:13.103)

It certainly helps. Yeah, they're amazing to help me just re-regulate and move on. So then, Annika, what are some of the biggest myths or misconceptions about ADHD and diet that our listeners can take away?

Annika Angelo (26:24.861)

So good.

Annika Angelo (26:36.333)

Honestly, last year, again, I just had like such a large epiphany last year. So I just, I'm gonna keep bringing it to that because before all of it, I really did believe that as long as people follow the rules, follow the diet, they're gonna be great. They're going to have their ADHD symptoms reduce and it's gonna be awesome. And people are gonna live their best lives. And then I realized that it doesn't just start in our.

and it doesn't just start in those rules that we do and all the things that we follow because if you do not have a system that can actually digest these nutrients, it's not gonna do jack for you. You have to have a system that's ready to accept it. And that's where really nervous system regulation comes in because when you are in a regulated state, then your body can absorb the nutrients that you're eating.

And so to do that, basics, which is very hard for all of us with ADHD. Make sure we're getting enough sleep. Make sure we're actually eating three meals a day. Make sure that we are eating enough protein. But more than that, connecting with people, feeling like you belong and that you are supported. Because when we feel supported, people with ADHD, we thrive. Even though a lot of us also love to be alone sometimes.

But being seen is what helps us do the things that are important. But also, you know, your classic like breathing exercises, orienting exercises, things like that.

Nic (28:06.213)

couldn't agree more.

Nic (28:13.626)

No, it's so true. Like I love going and seeing people, but at the same time, for me to be able to do my work most of the time, I need to be in a quiet space. So for me being in an open plan office, I get so distracted. I just can't focus. I'd much rather come home and do my work here. And that's where I do most of my work, thankfully. But yeah, going into the office is like...

let's grab a chat to this person. this person's in. I haven't seen them in ages. Let's have a conversation about the stuff that I need to do there. It's just like, no, stop. Just. Yeah, it's just like, let's go and do the doing instead of talking about it.

Annika Angelo (28:41.912)

Hahaha

Annika Angelo (28:47.521)

Let's talk about it instead of doing it.

Annika Angelo (28:56.773)

That being said, yes, like in general, having another person around is so helpful if you do struggle to eat. Like having my husband, truly the best experience in my entire life. Simply because like now I have that external signal that, somebody is eating food. I should eat food. Or he's going to sleep now. I should go to sleep now.

using that external cueing. So helpful for learning how to understand your body more. Yeah.

Nic (29:34.693)

I'm curious then, you mean you've mentioned those external cues. I find often that even though I know it's time to go to sleep, because it's 10.30 at night, that my brain still doesn't want to switch off, right? But when people start to recognize those body signals, how do we reconnect those to what we should be doing?

Annika Angelo (30:04.855)

Honestly, the key is trusting yourself. And that is one of the hardest things to do if you have ADHD because basically our whole lives we've felt betrayed by ourselves because either we believe that we should be on time to something and then we've gotten late or we think we need to do this one thing for work and then we never end up doing it and then we just blame ourselves. And through this whole process of all of these

experiences building up over the years we stop trusting ourselves and again like that's connected to how we stop just following our body signals because it like the root cause is that we aren't trusting ourselves honestly and the key here is to listen to that intuition that you get that intuition of like you know i probably should try to get to sleep but i want to do this

Annika Angelo (31:06.017)

and then after you decide which one do i want to do which like you don't have to rationalize it you don't have to over rationalize it you don't have to feel shame about it the goal is to in that moment realize that you have a choice you have that choice now to either turn your phone off or continue with it and now that you have that choice you're allowed to enjoy your choice

because now you're choosing to trust yourself. Well, it's more like choosing to trust your ability to make decisions.

And then through repeating that, every time you notice it come up, over time, you're going to start to make the decisions that are better for you. Because your brain and your body now are starting to trust each other.

Annika Angelo (32:04.589)

Takes time though.

Nic (32:04.619)

So true. So true. So, Annika, you've navigated all of this along with your burnout while building your own company, being Nutrimind. Nutrimind Lab, my apologies. What has entrepreneurship been like with someone with ADHD?

Annika Angelo (32:27.681)

The best thing and the worst thing at the same exact time. The best thing because I can wake up when I need to and I actually can start to listen to my body way easier. I like not having the schedule but having like a I choose my own schedule has been the best thing for my nervous system honestly. I mean you start off with the you get into the

a little bit too much of enjoying your own schedule and then you bounce back and you get into that middle nice zone. Not having people tell me what to do has been great but then also that's the other negative. There's no one telling you what to do. So it's been a great lesson in increasing my internal motivation. I think it's a lot more glamorous on the outside.

Nic (33:23.178)

than what it actually is on the inside.

Annika Angelo (33:25.473)

Yeah, I think that's that's really it. For a lot of us with ADHD, we'll see that and we'll be like, wow, that's really a really interesting, shiny, pretty thing that I want to do for myself. And the reality is that it is not very profitable at all. I mean, for me, I've broken even the last two years. I really was only able to do this because I saved up a lot from working like overworking for three years. I also have a husband, which is helpful.

He's fantastic. I mentioned that already, but deserves a second shout out. But yeah, being able to do this is great. But also, the one thing I learned that I think about all the time, and the reason I learned it again was because of my amazing husband. He told me, you are choosing your own stress. So why are you choosing to be stressed?

Annika Angelo (34:28.537)

I know right?

Nic (34:33.81)

very insightful. I couldn't agree more. Like you, we, choose to put ourselves in these situations. and it could be that, you know, we're taking on 101 things because that's what our brain wants us to do. but at the same time where

Choosing to ignore all of our body's signals and stress signals to go, what the hell are you doing? Why are you taking on so much and putting yourself in this situation to take in so much cortisol that your body just is going to be drowning in it at one point in time.

Annika Angelo (35:09.273)

Yeah And that's the interesting thing. Now I could talk about cortisol and ADHD for a while, but let's talk about entrepreneurship and ADHD back with that stress. That comment was also last year and it really reframed a lot for me realizing that every single thing that I am doing, I can choose to be stressed over it. And if it is causing me stress,

Do I want that stress? Am I making myself unnecessarily stressed just because I feel like that's what a person should feel? Undoing the whole you have to suffer in order to deserve something has been a journey for sure Yeah, you don't have to suffer because you deserve it anyway. I don't know.

Nic (36:07.036)

So definitely great advice. So then earlier in your career, you've experienced burnout while masking in such high performing environments. What did that look like for you?

Annika Angelo (36:17.207)

Yeah, it was so interesting because I didn't know I was ADHD. Didn't even think it was. But, so at this point I was working as a group home supervisor for, gosh, probably, yeah, three years at that point. And again, like I said, I didn't know I was, I had plenty of education in it. Cause I have, you know, my degrees in psychology, health psychology.

and I had a lot of

the people that I managed, a lot of them were neurodivergent whether it was autism or ADHD. One of my clients had a TBI so there was also just all those different types of neurodivergencies that I was seeing and intuitively I knew how to make them not burn out and how to talk with them and how to reduce their workload and noticing when they were starting to feel overworked or

extending the grace that I knew I would have needed if I was late and

Annika Angelo (37:28.727)

making plans to help them feel more in control and less like they are a failure. So all this time as I was managing them, I had this intuitive understanding of this is how to help them. But I didn't have that intuitive understanding for myself. And so I just continued to work harder and harder because I thought like, if only I can get this next task on my never ending task list done.

then I'll feel more in control and then I'll feel like I can breathe and I can have a break and then I feel like I will be good. And the problem with that is that the task list never ends. I'm sure everybody understands that concept. And that's one truth in life that we have to accept. But it feels like we can't accept it, you know?

Nic (38:19.405)

Yeah, absolutely. It's so true. Like there's always something that needs to be done, whether it's in your work life, your personal life, you know, a hobby that you've got going at the time that you want to do that's there. But even if you achieve that next thing that you've wanted to do to get that dopamine rush or that satisfaction, there's always something else that needs to be done.

And there's always something that you need to kind of context switch to go and do after that activity.

Annika Angelo (38:50.338)

Mm-hmm.

Annika Angelo (38:56.365)

Yeah, and that is also something that you don't notice when you have ADHD because for a lot of people, their task list is going to look very different from yours. So your task list is going to either look very, very small and feel very overwhelming or very, very long and feel overwhelming because either you break it down into a lot of very, very small steps.

because that's how you make sure that you don't forget anything or you have just overarching ones and then you just don't really touch it because it feels very big. But either way it doesn't end.

Nic (39:37.873)

Yeah, that's very, very challenging. So how did that experience for you change the way that you think about work and leadership?

Annika Angelo (39:49.21)

Well first, honestly, I wish my managers themselves were able to understand that I had ADHD. But it's impossible because I didn't even know I had ADHD. But more training in how to identify ADHD or autistic behavior in a workplace, even without a disclosure that a person has ADHD or autism or any other form of neurodivergence that makes

integrating yourself into the workforce a little bit challenging or making sure you don't burn out. Because if they were able to notice that, then they maybe would have put a higher priority on realizing like, okay, Annika says she can do everything and she seems like she's doing great and she's always super reliable and awesome.

But can she actually handle it?

And that is the question I wish I would have been asked. And not asked because I would have told them, yeah, I'm good. But instead have them tell me like, okay, that's awesome. We're gonna give you an assistant.

Yeah, really, I think that's the key, like having people be able to detect different types of behavior and especially detect when a person with ADHD or autism might be going into burnout.

Nic (41:19.187)

Yeah, I mean, it's challenging, right? Because I'm not sure what the laws are in the States, but here in Australia, you can't directly ask somebody if they are diagnosed or if they do have a diagnosis. But

You know, if you, if you have an inkling that someone may be neurodivergent and you have the ability to detect those signals, then it's definitely more beneficial for you and the, and the person, right? Because you can have, you have that opportunity to go, okay, I know how they work better and I can give them the right tools to be successful.

as opposed to just running blindly without actually recognizing those signals and those strengths or weaknesses of the individual themselves.

Annika Angelo (42:12.013)

Yeah, no, that's that's exactly it. Yeah, I want to do eventually just a long training and webinar series to different companies on how to identify different types of traits and how to identify burnout in those types of people. Well, obviously, specifically ADHD, but also the warning signs that a person might be going into it and then

even better than that the watching signs so that you can tell like this person might might be sliding a little bit into the warning section and because i mean really our goal is to reduce people leaving and reduce having to have people take time off while also improving how they feel in the workplace and how they do output in the workplace

Being able to identify both of those and then help create an action plan is really going to change the, like, I mean, bottom line, obviously, but also the workplace environment itself. Because it's not something you just give for people with ADHD. It's something that you can identify in every single person that you manage.

Nic (43:35.376)

Yeah, absolutely. I like to kind of see it as you every every individual is unique. You can't manage everyone the exact same way. Because they've all got their own different abilities, they've all got their own different ways of doing things and learning and achieving the goals that are the outcomes. So why put them in a box? They should all be managed.

as individuals and for some managers that's extremely difficult because they're like no I want things done this way and only this way. Where I think the a lot of the literature and the educate in neurodivergence nowadays is if you've met one neurodivergent individual or one individual in general you've met one individual you can't place them in that box you know everyone with ADHD

Annika Angelo (44:26.934)

Yup.

Nic (44:32.08)

are going to have different traits, they're going to have different stims, they're going to have different distractions. So and that's that's challenging for a manager, right, because they can't just learn one set of kind of warning signals, because it could be different for every individual as well.

Annika Angelo (44:52.633)

That's exactly right. And I know you, like we were gonna talk about this, so I'll just bring it up now. This is why I got trained in processing communication model. It is one of the very few validated models of, it's not necessarily personality, but it is at the same time. It really is a model of how to understand what people need.

and how to meet them where they're at using your language and using their language. So when people understand how they operate in the world and what they're looking for in the world and what they need, then they can start to identify those other types of the, like there are six different validated types in this model called PCM. And then you can see,

does this person actually need from me? and then you also understand why this type of person has been so hard to communicate with and why you feel like you've been hitting this like dead end and once you say their language it opens up into this beautiful conversation where you actually get things done and where you actually feel connected and there's no more of that resistance and it's it's beautiful

Nic (46:20.266)

So then if organizations can understand those differences in communication styles, how's that going to look, or what's it going to change for individuals along with leaders?

Annika Angelo (46:34.275)

For me, I I love managers. I loved managing things myself. And so I immediately think about people who are managers. Once you have this model, you will start to pick up on different people's patterns. And then you'll be able to understand, this is what this person needs. So for example, this is gonna make just like almost no sense unless anybody has looked at PCM before.

But I am an imaginor base and what that looks like is I have a hard time with being present. I love being by myself. I love doing things by myself. However, at the same time, I need an external push usually or else I don't do anything and I'll just stay in my little head and I will do these little trails off into the distance of like, hmm.

and I could do this blah blah blah. And for that, the main thing that a person needs to talk to that person is in the directive channel of say like, give this to me by the end of the day. And that's the perfect type of communication for me. And then there's additional layers because a person can go through the different types throughout their entire life. So for example, like

If a person told that directive to a different type without connecting with them in the way that they need, it's going to be a completely different experience. So for example, give it to a person with ADHD who is in the rebel type. What they need is like some physical contact, some fun, be like, hey, love seeing you today. Thanks so much for being here.

Can you do this for me? Will that work? But being, yeah, connective in that contact way and working together with them instead of just telling them what to do. Or for a thinker base, like that person, they love having questions. So think your classic scientist. And that's, yeah, they just want to be asked things.

Annika Angelo (49:01.869)

Being told to do things is also fine for them, just that requestive channel is so helpful. yeah, understanding the different motivations, how to talk with other people, it actually gets things done in a way that is not recently.

forced, I think is the key. So, I just talked too much about that, but.

Nic (49:26.296)

No, I love it. it, I'm definitely going to be reading more about PCM once we jump off today because it, sounds like such a great framework to learn and to help better understand how to communicate with individuals. I would probably

Annika Angelo (49:46.071)

Yeah, I found it helpful as a person who like has difficulties with that.

Nic (49:51.944)

I would probably fall in the imaginator sector as well, because I'm always living in a daydream somewhere. Even if I'm having a meal with my family or sitting out at dinner or lunch somewhere and I'm always off with the fairies and my wife's like, hey, back to back to where you are. I'm like, I was enjoying where I was.

Annika Angelo (50:08.6)

Yeah

Annika Angelo (50:13.241)

Well it sounds like she's doing the right thing with telling you what to do.

Nic (50:18.056)

She is, she definitely is, and very, very supportive, so very thankful. But yeah, it's nice to be able to walk back into reality sometimes too.

Annika Angelo (50:27.711)

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's important because when we're, there is a failure pattern connected with it and it's called the never failure pattern. And this might resign with you if you've ever felt like you have this large goal that you have or it can be a small goal and then you feel you just like never get there. Whether it's because you keep putting it off or it's just like, I could do it but then it feels like

I've accomplished everything. And so, that's what's happening right now with my hypothesis.

Nic (51:07.057)

Yep. I often find that if I'm told that I can't do something, then I want to do it even more, which is extremely challenging.

Annika Angelo (51:22.521)

That sounds, yeah, like the PDA coming in.

Nic (51:26.094)

Yeah, my one of my sons has PDA and yeah, he it's very challenging because if we ask him to do something he does the exact opposite just because we've asked him to do something so we were always having to adjust our communication style to try and get the best outcome for him. But yeah, it's challenging because you know

Annika Angelo (51:47.129)

Mmm.

Nic (51:53.198)

I've had people go, hey, you're never going to go and do an MBA. It's like, well, I'm going to go and do my MBA now. And I did.

Annika Angelo (51:58.266)

Now I will. Yeah, that's how I feel like I lived a lot of my life too, just out of spite.

Nic (52:06.48)

Yeah, but now it's recognizing, no, I don't need to go and do everything because someone says I can't do it. It's needing to focus my energy and put it into the things that I want to put it into. It's very insightful and powerful. Some people struggle with that as well.

Annika Angelo (52:21.367)

Hmm. I love that.

Nic (52:34.086)

There are there so many things that are going on in my head at the moment it's wild but that's okay. So I'd love to throw the mic over to you and ask you if you have any questions for me before we continue.

Annika Angelo (52:34.435)

We're doing a very imagineer thing right now. We're just, we're just like nodding at each other and imagining things.

Annika Angelo (52:55.097)

I feel like I could just ask you a lot of questions and it would likely be connected to your kids because I'm very intrigued now about your sons with AuDHD and but that feels a little personal so instead I will just ask you what is something that you feel you're most proud of?

Nic (52:58.244)

you

Nic (53:19.651)

I'm most proud of... Look, I think having the time to look after my kids is definitely something that I'm most proud of. It's very rare for me, or very rare, that people have the opportunity to work from home as much as I do to take, to have that time to support them. But also, I guess the industry that I work in, I work in health.

being able to support and deliver technology systems to provide health outcomes to save lives across Australia is something that I truly love to be able to do on a day-to-day basis. Absolutely.

Annika Angelo (53:58.628)

Hmm.

Annika Angelo (54:06.157)

that's amazing now let me ask one more thing imagine yourself experiencing

something that you have not let yourself experience.

Annika Angelo (54:25.783)

And now, don't tell me what it is. Can you experience that in your body? That feeling?

Annika Angelo (54:36.481)

as as you can't think of something else.

Nic (54:39.522)

That's... yeah, I I... It's something that I... yeah, I don't know.

Nic (54:52.543)

I generally, I'm generally one of those people that if I want to do something I'll try and do it as much as I can. but just trying to think of things that I haven't done yet. Yeah, I mean, I can definitely think of something.

Annika Angelo (55:12.473)

And even if you don't have anything, really I was just curious if there even is something out there for you that you feel like you're just looking for and excited for in your life and if you can experience that in your body instead of just your mind.

Nic (55:29.769)

Yeah.

Annika Angelo (55:29.869)

because now, with that, you'll be able to experience more interoception.

Nic (55:35.839)

No, that's actually really insightful. Just to give you some insight there, I was thinking more about traveling and spending a little bit more time with my family. So we spent a little bit of time in Japan a couple of years ago now. And that was such a lovely time because we got to experience different culture and just have that family time. And it's not something that we've had.

a lot of time to be able to do. But being able to have that opportunity to go and experience another different culture and have that different experience with the kids is something that I'm definitely looking forward to being able to do more of in the future. And that kind of fills me with that warmth and that excitement of being able to experience that with the kids as well.

Annika Angelo (56:16.537)

Hmm.

Annika Angelo (56:32.109)

That's so beautiful. Well, I wish that you get to experience that soon because that sounds like something that your internal self really desires and values. I also hope that it's something that gives your kids more regulation at the same time.

Nic (56:49.607)

It does, yeah. Yeah, they definitely enjoy it. So then, so then just before we wrap then, I'd love to ask, so if we do have managers that are listening that are going to start, you know, managing teams tomorrow morning, what's something that they should be rethinking?

Annika Angelo (56:53.444)

that's good.

Annika Angelo (57:10.969)

Honestly, rethink how you interact with people and think about all the people that make you feel very annoyed and ask yourself, why are they making me feel annoyed? Is it like truly just like ask yourself why am I feeling annoyed around them? And then last, ask yourself, do I think they might have some

form of neurodivergence. And if I think that, how can I learn to talk to them better?

Yeah, because a lot of us with ADHD, autism, we have a core fear of feeling like we're annoyed or annoying. I I don't know if there resounds with you at all, but yeah, constantly monitored my myself and worry that I'm just like this annoying person. And I just wish people would tell me like, hey, this is kind of like annoying when you do this. But it's not like because you're doing it, it's like

Can we figure out a way that you can do this without burning yourself out and without us feeling annoyed with each other?

Nic (58:27.1)

For me, it's being told that my communication style is too blunt. Because people don't like how direct I am. And it can make people feel uncomfortable sometimes. So it's trying to monitor how I communicate with people.

Annika Angelo (58:34.681)

Mm-mm.

Annika Angelo (58:45.847)

Hmm and see like if people just understood that you have ADHD or this is like where PCM comes in, if people just understood you had this specific type of base or phase then they'd be like, this is just how he communicates. This is awesome. He is in great connection with himself. I don't need to feel annoyed.

Nic (59:11.387)

So, Awesome. Annika, thank you so much for your time today and in joining me on the inclusive shift. has been wonderful to have you. Speak to you soon.

Annika Angelo (59:13.803)

It's really just understanding each other, you know? That's the key to everything. Understanding your body, yourself, and other people.

Annika Angelo (59:31.767)

Thanks for inviting me. This was a lovely chat.