Operating Systems of the Mind

Today on the Inclusive Shift, I'm joined by Pili Ibanez-Ruiz. Pili works at the intersection of social systems, human behaviour and lived experience. She's autistic, twice exceptional, with a background spanning social services, education, the prison system and leadership in housing support for people on the autism spectrum and with mental health conditions.

Pili's work challenges how we define professionalism, intelligence and care and asks what happens when systems reward speed, compliance and performance over depth, insight and ethics. Pili, welcome to the Inclusive Shift.

Pili (00:51)

Hi Nic, thank you very much for having me. A pleasure.

Nic (00:54)

Pili, you've said that labels aren't really your passion, even though that you're often described as autistic or gifted. Can you share why that is?

Pili (01:01)

Well, I think my perception with labels has something to do with my life experiences and also what I have seen when I have been supporting other people. Labels has been sometimes more problems than the benefits. Labels can carry a lot of stigma and it can be a social tax.

that it follows you in your life, at work, in your personal relationships. For example, when someone is diagnosed with bipolar, that carries a lot of stigma. I have seen this in workplaces, how this bias about bipolar being someone that is

sad or happy, unpredictable, all these words that if you truly know what bipolar means, there's nothing to do actually with the real presentation of the illness. So that's why I feel like that with labels. And personally as well, I have experienced that.

My first diagnosis was bipolar and because of that I had so many difficulties at work. Actually, that is one thing for me, diagnosis are a construction in the end, a human construction. same two different people can go for an assessment.

And it's going to be one professional who is going to say, well, you tick this box and you don't. But maybe it's just because that day, these two different people, are explaining a symptom in a different way. But you have the diagnosis and you don't. And that means a lot. You're not going to get maybe the support that you need just because one professional that is ticking boxes has decided that you don't.

don't have the criteria. So these labels are linked to diagnosis frameworks that for me they're very outdated.

Nic (02:57)

thank you for sharing, The diagnosis system is challenging because as you mentioned, it can be dependent on a specific individual and even the way that they've explained a certain symptom or the way that it potentially is portrayed and it may not align with how that...

individual understands their experience as an individual but it could be that if explained slightly differently that they are.

Pili (03:26)

Many people when they visit a mental health professional, they are in distress already and they don't have the knowledge that I can have now myself. They don't know what is a nervous system. They can say, well, I feel I am sad. I remember the first time I went to see a GP, I didn't know I was suffering anxiety.

And I just went there and I explained, well, I don't know what's happening, when I am in the street, I need to go home. And I remember he never said to me that that's anxiety, never. He prescribed me a medication and I went home and I Googled this prescription and it said something like commonly prescribed for anxiety.

So sometimes even that happens, you go somewhere and they don't tell you what is happening. I didn't know what was anxiety and I had been suffering anxiety for 35 years.

it can be very discouraging and harmful and dangerous. Basically, in my case, now things have changed and I am a different person. This has happened and they didn't help me at all. was something that I did by myself with work and naturally...

studying my body and they actually traumatized me a little bit more. So I have this opinion about our mental health system that use this old framework about behaviors instead of explaining to patients what is actually happening in your body. are still, now I know things are changing.

Things are changing in communities where neurodivergent people talk to each other. And we know because we research, we have this curiosity. But are really things changing in mental health services, in public mental health services? I'm not sure about that. I don't think so.

Nic (05:25)

Yeah, I mean, it can be quite a challenge and it's different, guess, across the entire globe as well. But I think the... I was speaking to somebody else the other day and we had a conversation around the fact that mental health services have changed dramatically since COVID.

A

lot of people...

started to become more aware of themselves and how their minds and bodies work because they were stuck inside for so long. And since then, I guess there's been that resurgence of people wanting answers on why their mind is like it is or why

Pili (05:58)

Yeah.

Nic (05:58)

their body is like it is. And a lot of it as well has come back from parents wanting to be diagnosed because their kids have potentially just been diagnosed as well.

they want to understand how their trials mind is potentially working as well.

Pili (06:10)

Yeah, which is very important. Absolutely.

Nic (06:15)

So that leads me to my next question, when we talk about operating systems of the brain, what do you mean and why is that framing more useful than a diagnosis alone?

Pili (06:25)

Basically, the diagnostic criteria is quite outdated. Many professionals are using the DSM, which only until, I think it was 1976, homosexuality was a mental illness in that manual.

So I consider if I frame myself and I talk about operation system, it lands better because I'm talking only about my brain. I'm talking about my body. I'm talking about connections.

they still think that the brain is isolated. Operation system means that we are all different individuals with running different softwares. And I think it lands better with myself to understand diagnosis, to understand that ADHD,

how they think, how they process information, how they communicate. if you understand better, the operation system that the diagnostic that is updated and based in behavior.

That's why I use the term. I think it's a term that everybody knows what it is anyway.

Nic (07:33)

I think is a great term.

Pili (07:35)

in my case, there is also the possibility of operating with two, three different operation systems at the same time. So people have ADHD and autism, and they can have a mental health condition, there's another operation system.

That is how I think, because for me, your body is not something static. It's something that changes constantly. So your operation system is running all the time. A diagnosis seems like something static. yeah, in my case, my operation systems are

autism and gifted and I recognize myself, that's my identity. I feel sometimes one is the main one, this is operating, is the main character sometimes, and sometimes is the other one.

Nic (08:21)

I think it's a great term and it's something that everyone can kind of recognize and understand because it gives you that capability of going, hey look, I run on a different operating system to you, can you help me better understand x, y or z? That way, it's not only kind of a way of explaining that, my brain works different to yours, but it's maybe a kinder way to go just...

helped me better understand as well.

Pili (08:43)

I think with operation system framing that way, we can understand how the brain naturally takes information in, how does it regulate energy and stress, how we learn, and also what kind of environments are going to help us to thrive.

Nic (09:01)

So Pili you've described experiencing the world through deep processing and strong sensitivity. What does that feel like for you day to day?

Pili (09:09)

Well, in my case, I didn't know I was autistic and I was gifted until I was 40 years old. I am now 45 years old. So I suffer from trauma since I was a child.

that meant that all my cognition was dormant. There were hints here and there during my teenagers years, in my early 20s, 30s, when I was a child as well. But I was so traumatized, my body was so busy in survival mode that I couldn't develop that part of myself.

Why I'm saying this? Because it's so important to point this in children. Because to operate, to have this operation system and not being able to work on it, it can bring so many challenges later in life when you actually discover that you have this difference. So what it for me now, it has been a journey.

since I healed my trauma that happened around five years ago, all of a sudden, my brain liberated, my brain was trapped, my connection, my abilities, and all of a sudden, my brain started running, running fast, fast, fast, fast, and I it was quite scary for myself.

That's why you have therapists and people that can help you to go through this state and people that they had been through the same. But currently that I know who am I and how my brain works and my body, what that means for me in my day by day, sometimes it's very chaotic and I'm still learning. Sometimes I have these eureka moments.

ideas that comes before years ago it was the same I could come with a bright theory at random but I could at the same time that it came to my brain it disappeared I didn't have the ability to retain that information and now I'm working on it so it's easier also for my whole body my well-being because

when you are dysregulated and you have this intellectuality going on, it's quite messy. you go outside and your brain is constantly receiving information. And when you are regulated and you are aligned with your body, your body is getting information. So you have to be

You have to be selective because if you read too much, If I make eye contact, if I am to focus on something, all these systems are running all the time and I get exhausted. Sensibility, I'm very sensitive to...

Not only because I am autistic, I get overloaded with lights, noises, if someone touch me and it's not the right moment, I shake. So to live with that is, my life needs to be very simple. I go to work, I do my things, I need to be around nice people.

They don't need to be intellectually brilliant. That's not the case. On the contrary, I get on much better with vulnerable individuals, with pure people. I think my body as well is able to catch that. And then I come home, I have my interest. I try to feed my brain as well because it's asking me for that.

And yeah, it's challenging. To be gifted means, you know, this is another level. Years ago, they were measuring your knowledge with an IQ. So you could actually

train

your brain to do these tests and you were labeled as a gifted individual. Nowadays it's different and what they assess is quality instead of quantity, which I think is a better way. Yeah, so it's challenging. It's very interesting. I learn every day a little bit more by metacognition.

I get these insights and that are deeply, in my opinion, innovative and creative.

Nic (13:22)

Awesome, thank you for sharing. It's quite insightful.

I guess the difficulty when being, diagnosed as you mentioned before, going through that sort of state, those stages of trauma and grief as

Pili (13:33)

yeah.

Nic (13:33)

well, which is something that I think you highlighted is important to seek out a professional and work through those to help you better understand yourself, but also to ensure that you're not alone to go through those stages as well.

Pili (13:45)

Exactly, exactly.

Nic (13:49)

So you've worked across some of the most complex systems that we have, be it education, prisons, social services. Where do you most clearly see a mismatch between neurodivergent people and how the systems are designed?

Pili (14:02)

In my opinion, I have worked as a prison officer, as a teacher, and in social services. Those are different names from the same system. There are no three different systems. They are all the same. I have seen the same structure rigid structure, that is a conflict with neurodivergent people.

with life, with flexibility. This is what they want from you is to complete. They want you to be fast. They want you to be quiet. And they want you to act within the expected standards. They have decided are the right ones So for neurodivergent people, it's difficult because we want clarity.

We don't want hiding rules. I have seen working in these public institutions, the hiding agendas they have. They don't understand that neurodivergent people, need time to rest. They want you to be ready on time and all the time.

We can see how their tasks, they are pointless sometimes. They are built for profit. They are built for productivity. They are not built for humans. And it's very, I mean, have seen, they can tell you, we want from you this,

We want you to be yourself. We want you to be comfortable. We believe in inclusiveness and respect. And then you are there and you see that actually they are doing the opposite.

So they, I mean, they punish basically for your biology. But actually what...

What

you see, what they are punishing is actually what they are doing behind doors. So you have all these policies about inclusion and then you ask for adjustment or you make use of a complaint procedure and they resolve these complaints with unfairness, resistance and lies. And that happens in public institutions.

doesn't matter, happens all the time.

Nic (16:09)

I think

Neurodivergent people in general don't really deal with ambiguity very well and they don't typically like it. guess the other one for me is guess was Ludmila Paraslova that said that if you put a neurodivergent person, specifically I think it was an autistic individual into an organization, they'll typically tell you what's wrong and the way that

it was explained was very similar to a canary in a coal mine. So a canary in a coal mine was designed to say, there's not enough oxygen, you need to get out. Whereas if you put a neurodivergent individual into a workplace, they'll typically tell you what's wrong with the process, why the processes are not designed.

effectively and ensure that they are designed in such a way that they're going to become more proficient over time.

Pili (17:01)

Yeah.

Yeah, I I have failed many times, of course out of place. Well, I feel like that constantly anyway. we are not the problem. The problem is where we step in, because we see the mistakes, the faults, and actually we don't want to, we say these mistakes that we see, not as a personal attack to anyone, it's just to help

the collective to do better. That is something that I think they don't understand. There's nothing personal with saying, we can do this this way. They always think we have a hidden agenda ourselves. Nothing like that.

Nic (17:38)

Yeah, it's not an individual attack. It's just highlighting that there's a broken process and you're trying to improve it.

So you've said that many people misunderstand autism and what autism actually is. So what do you see people getting wrong most often?

Pili (17:52)

Well, I think people need knowledge. They are stuck in conception also about mental health. But they think autism is something social or behavioral. And autism has to do with the whole body.

So that means autism is not only communication and social interaction. It's also your sleep, your digestive system, your balance. All of that. think it's... for me it's very sad when...

When I see people working with other autism people and they still think it's a mental health illness, or I have heard people supporting other autistic person that they have a double personality. That's the sad part for me because you are actually helping these people or supporting these people, that is very sad.

So I would like people to understand that there is a difference. And some people need support just because the environment is not designed for them. But that is something neurological in our bodies that cannot be cured. Sometimes people say, we are all different. And they say, maybe they try to help us saying that.

And it's true that we are all different, but you are different and the system, the workplaces, the supermarkets, the parks, you are fine with them. So you are different, and I am different, but I cannot benefit from those things because they are not built having in mind my operation system.

So we are all different, but then we want all the same opportunities. And I cannot stand people that says we are all a little bit autistic. That's very harmful for people like myself, the people I support at work, for autistic people. We have an identity, we have a neurobiology that is unique.

you need to respect that. We cannot change and we are not gonna change. And unfortunately sometimes I don't like these words about neurotypicals and neurodivergent people, but sometimes it feels like they want these words. Because we are, we are neurodivergent people, we are able to adapt ourselves to their language.

make an effort to fit in, but they are not doing that. So sometimes it feels like a war and it's not our intention, but we have also a limit. So sometimes when I hear this, are all a bit autistic. And I explain, well,

This is, I don't think what you saying is right and I explain myself and it still is not enough and I hit it the following day again and again. It's quite difficult. So, yeah, I would like people to understand that autism is biologically and it cannot be cured because there's nothing to be cured.

Nic (21:01)

Autism is, I mean, it's a spectrum. It's obviously, and that's exactly why they've now changed it to being an autism spectrum instead of, you know, it used to be called Asperger's way back in the day. It's had so many different names over the years.

Pili (21:16)

Yeah,

maybe that's the problem that people have in their minds, that autistic people, they don't have verbal communication, they have some of them movement disorders. That is just because our bodies are built with different systems. Some autistic people, they're one of...

two, three of these systems are overlapped and they get stopped. So there is a break between what happens in one area of your brain and that information doesn't go. And I'm not a scientists, I don't know this, but what happened in one area of your brain doesn't connect in the area that facilitates the movement, for example, or makes movements in your face, your arms.

or maybe you cannot even walk. So that doesn't mean that your connection, that you have learning disabilities, for example. You can be autistic and have learning disabilities. But that's a different history. And then, do I consider myself disabled? I don't consider myself disabled when I am at home and I am in control of my impairment.

I consider myself disabled when I go outside. When people interact with me and are disrespectful, they violate my nature, my sensibility, and that provokes in my body a reaction. So, and I'm disabled, yeah, when I am outside.

But I don't think it's that difficult to understand autism, in my opinion, but you need to have a little bit of interest.

Nic (22:57)

Sometimes I think it's a little bit of empathy as well.

Pili (22:59)

Exactly, and empathy is another big word, you know, because sometimes there are people that they need to go through something, the same thing, to feel empathy. There is another quality of people with high sensibility and something that many autistic and gifted individuals have. You don't need to go through a situation to actually feel that the same experience, and that happened to many autistic people.

just to say, I'm sorry what's happening to you, and then change the topic and go and have a coffee. That's not empathy, that's hypocrisy.

Nic (23:35)

So then how does the system that rewards speed over depth or compliance over insight impact autistic or gifted people in the long term?

Pili (23:43)

I think that those things affect us immediately in many different ways. It teaches us that our natural way of thinking is wrong. This is very important in children. This can have an impact in children, in their mental health, in their self-esteem. We start doubting our instincts.

This creates stress because we are constantly working against our own cognitive wiring. So people learn to stay quiet instead of pointing out problems or ethical concerns. And this leads to burnout, loss of confidence, chronic fatigue, digestive issues, mental health.

That's what happened. feel, I mean, my reaction is very quick when something, when someone is inviting my

natural way of being is

Nic (24:39)

Yeah.

Pili (24:39)

the reaction is very quick. But long term, it can be devastating for our mental health and for our physical health as well.

Nic (24:49)

I agree. So the name workplaces, what does professionalism often demand and why does that definition cause harm?

Pili (24:57)

I think professionalism, as we understand, is another construction, it's another human construction. Professionalism can mean many different things. But what we understand, the typical, the average, they think you are professional if you don't show your emotions.

If you don't say that actually you have too much work to do, professionalism means for them to make a contact, to follow this social script, the small talk, you need to speak with confidence. Better if you don't question how things are done. That is for them what is professionalism.

So we neurodivergent people, they want us to do that, to follow that, to fit in. They want us to do the same. And this is just a very narrow communication and a very narrow nervous system style that doesn't relate to us. Also, I mean, even some workplaces, professionalism,

means to wear specific clothes or to go on social events with your colleagues. So if you don't go to social events with your colleagues, you're not a professional anymore. That is discrimination, actually, that I cannot do what I want in my spare time. you're going to say that I'm not a professional because I don't

join you in your lunch break and I prefer to have my break on my own.

So...

Nic (26:27)

Yeah,

that's challenging because in one instance, having a lunch break with a colleague may be seen as building a relationship or helping better understand how each other's minds work, right? But at the same time, someone that's neurodivergent may need that half an hour to 45 minutes to re-regulate themselves to be able to remain within the office space for the rest of the day.

Pili (26:51)

I mean, for me, I work in an office and my routine, I need to do it because if not, I start fidgeting. My routine is at 12, 1 p.m. I need to go to the same coffee place that I go every day. And that needs to happen. And everyone needs to respect that. But I mean, the confidence that I have now, no one is gonna say nothing. But what I mean is that

That's for me my time, my space to recharge, to follow my routine, that is what keeps me regulated. This needs to be understood. And I don't think it's that difficult because basically what they're doing, they're

judging our social interaction or how funny we are or how... So it rewards people who look calm over people who are actually competent. Rewards charisma over death.

Nic (27:46)

Yeah, think the challenge there as well is everybody's social battery charges differently, right? So for you, going and having your coffee is giving your battery the ability to recharge enough so that you don't fidget for the rest of the day. Where another individual could be charging their battery through having that social conversation because that helps them engage and focus for the remainder of the day as well.

what people need to start to understand is that everybody's social battery charges differently and that if someone may not want to go and socialize at lunchtime or go to the pub after work for drinks, it's not because they are trying to be disrespectful or unprofessional. They're trying to do what's right for their social battery and ensure that

they have the ability to continue to deliver their work and their outcomes in the best way that they can.

Pili (28:40)

Absolutely. Yeah.

Nic (28:42)

Awesome. So Pili you've also named micromanagement as a recurring issue for you. So what does that micromanagement do to neurodivergent thinkers?

Pili (28:49)

Well, think micromanagement kills cognitive oxygen. We are thinkers who work best with autonomy. We need time to think, space to follow complex thought processes. If there is someone that is constantly behind us,

observing, testing. Sometimes I have noticed that in workplaces where you disclosed your diagnosis or that you are autistic, it happens straight after you disclosing this. And this is this stigma and bias that is related, that it comes with diagnosis sometimes.

All of a sudden they think that you are slower or that you need more support. This has happened. And actually what they're doing is the opposite. They're causing problems to our cognition. So basically what they're doing is that our nervous system goes into a threat mode.

They are forcing us to change our creativity and deep thinking into survival. And this is funny because these very people who have been hired for insight, innovation, complex problem solvents, and you can see this in this job adverts, that is what they are looking for. And then actually when you are at work and you're doing that,

they stop you from doing it. They start all this micromanaging thing. This is very frustrating for neurotypicals, but for neurodivergent people, it means you are attacking my identity. This is part of our core condition on how we interact at work. We need autonomy.

And I'm talking now a little bit in general because we are different, ourself. But the people, neurodivergent people I have met, they really struggle with this micro management that actually is not good for anyone, not for neurotypicals either. You need to be, you can be a great manager, a great leader without doing that because you...

You are stopping all this creativity and you are hurting our natural well-being.

Nic (31:01)

I guess that leads me straight into my next question then, which is obviously leaders do misunderstand autistic communication. Things like having eye contact or doing small talk, be it before a meeting, for example, or after a meeting. What opportunities are they missing through not understanding autistic communication?

Pili (31:23)

With that, they're missing, I'm gonna explain how I do make eye contact. So in my case, when I talk to someone, I'm not able to make eye contact. So my eyes will go to one side of the room, but it's not gonna be like that, just because.

If I look at you and I'm talking at the same time, I'm receiving all this sensory information and I'm looking at your face. Your face is telling me things, your expression, your body. in my case, as an autistic person, when I'm focusing on something that is my thing and I cannot do two, three, four times at the same time. And because I'm very sensitive and

even if I don't want to, my body is actually grasping all of that, is too much for my body. And one way of stopping that much energy and information is if I don't look at you. But if you are talking to me, I'm actually not, I don't only make eye contact, I stare at you because I want to catch the maximum. My attention is just focused on you.

So I look at you, you can't even be scared because I'm totally focused on you to get the maximum information. making eye contact, actually people that they don't make eye contact probably are the ones that they're concentrating more in what you are saying. So what we need to learn is that those are the stereotypes and actually you can actually ask

the person. And that's nothing to do with professionalism, if you are making eye contact with them. They are missing all of this because then if you don't ask, if you presume things, you do judgment and then you go and you talk with someone else and all this, this person is distracted because she was not looking at me and all of that.

And then a small talk is...

Small talk is just a social script or something that they do and I I understand now. I didn't understand before. I understand that but because I understand doesn't mean I need to follow that. I'm more interested in conversations with a meaning. you're gonna tell me something

with information that I would, it's like I'm gonna tell my relation with friends, right? I don't text my friends every day. I mean, it can take weeks until I reply a text. But if that person texts me, I need you, I need your help, I am knocking that door in five seconds. For me, if you're telling me I did,

what did you do this weekend and you are not telling me something important? Well, this really happened to me and I'm upset. Or when you are telling me, well, I went to the shopping center or I changed the color of my living room and all those things. For me, actually, I feel pain, physical pain. Why? Because my brain is not...

It's not understanding this interaction that is not giving me anything meaningful.

That doesn't mean I know that I am a bad worker. On the contrary, why? Because we are great at managing time. We go to a meeting that is 20 minutes schedule, for 20 minutes. And if we are all autistic people, the meeting start at nine and finish at 20 past nine. But when there are nervous system and cellular operation system,

a meeting that is for 20 minutes, it can last two hours because of all this small talk and interaction and I'm not saying it's, you know, everyone can do whatever they want. But not doing it is not a bad thing and we are not rude because we don't do it. It's just how we perceive, interact with the world and how our biology is.

is another bad person. On the contrary, probably I don't need too much information if you are telling me I need you come here now.

Nic (35:39)

I think that the challenge with small talk is that a lot of neurodivergent people, specifically autistic people, don't see it as relevant because that's not as a part of their task, right? Or the thing that they need to deliver.

if they schedule a meeting, they want to get a specific outcome and they want to move on and continue to do their work. They don't need to have that small talk before or after. Similarly with eye contact, what I find is people expect you to have eye contact, especially if you're doing things like meetings or interviews.

and they'd see it as unprofessional if you're not giving them that eye contact. as you said, if an individual isn't staring specifically at you, but they're still engaging in the conversation, why is that seen as...

you know, unprofessional, it shouldn't be. They're still engaging, they're still answering your question, they're still giving you the ability to understand or articulate the message that you're trying to get across. It's just that they're not specifically focused on your face because they're trying to get their thought out at the same time. And I think what we need to do to start understanding there is that neurodivergent individuals

across the plane there, but specifically I think autistic individuals do struggle with that eye contact. And it's okay not to stare at somebody. As long as you're getting an outcome, or you're getting an answer to the question that you've asked, where is the problem?

Pili (37:11)

There are many social rules that people have internalized. Like, that's there's black or white, and not always it's black or white. Things can change. There are different ways of living, perceiving, communicating. There's nothing stuck.

So many things are internalized as the only thing, and they make life of other people more difficult.

Nic (37:36)

So then What should professionalism look like if we redesign it and shape it with human-centered design?

Pili (37:43)

Well, then we need to take into account flexible communication styles, clear expectations instead of hiding rules, outcomes instead of social performance, collaboration that actually include different styles.

Another thing I could, in my case, I understand rest and recovery should be part of work.

Yes, It should not be about eye contact, tone or personality performance. It should be about humanity.

responsibility, how much you like your job, for example. If you like your job, you are much better at it, What do you offer? What are your personal skills that can make this workplace better? And just have a...

interact with one each other without hiding meanings. Just be clear, honest. That's professionalism. And being, if you go to work and you don't feel well, to have the opportunity to say, I don't feel well today, and to know that nobody is gonna...

know, gossip about you. I mean, to be able to go to work and to say, I feel depressed, and that everyone could go to you and say, tell me more, or if you want to, no, feel free, or I'm sorry, or how many people hide their mental health problems at work because of fear? with, and actually they're right. Then the...

you are honest about your mental health and two weeks later you get a letter from HR and then everything is depression. If you have a bad day or she was this depressed or there's cruelty. cannot, and also when this happened in social services or in places that they say

They have all this slogan about disability confidence and all of that. So that's professionalism for me to be you 24-7 at work as well. To feel free. And to feel free to say, what about if I can have more breaks more often? I feel that this can help me. And someone say, that's OK. That's not going to make any difference.

For example, sometimes they find difficulties where they're not. They make things more difficult. They spend more money in tribunals than actually just talking with people. What do you need? And nothing is going to change. And if colleagues are not happy because they just are, this is typical, why she and not me?

That's where managers and leaders need to step in and say, well, because this person is not you. And there is, she needs this, and you don't. And that's it. And there's no more.

I think everything is easier than we think. We complicate things a lot. But for that you need

Nic (40:35)

I agree.

Pili (40:36)

to ask us.

No assume.

Nic (40:38)

So

do you think the current mental health system is equipped to support neurodiversion people or is it really outdated?

Pili (40:46)

totally updated. mean, if things are changed, the problem now, I mean,

in UK they are the waiting list and talking about years.

Nic (40:58)

Yeah,

I've heard it's roughly five years to be diagnosed for currently in the UK.

Pili (41:00)

Where actually in Scotland

where I live, think they don't get more people. They're not even waiting list. They don't take in more people now. And there are many, many people waiting at home, not knowing what is going on with them. And why don't we train doctors, not specialists, doctors, to tell them a little bit, just a little bit advice about...

what they are experiencing. I don't find any tests because they dramatize me. But I found the GP around two weeks ago. I went to shut down. I couldn't talk. And I became scared. was at home. I couldn't function and I couldn't move. So

I found the GP.

and it was the receptionist and she said, you need to phone tomorrow. This is typical here, right? But anyway, I was in that state, I couldn't move, I couldn't talk, you know. So I phoned the next day with the receptionist said, we will phone you back. She phoned me back and I got an appointment with the GP.

10 days later, I was gonna cancel, but I thought, because my shutdown lasted six hours maybe, and then I recovered. And the GP phoned me and I swear this was the conversation. Hi, I was at work. And she said, I thought you were gonna come to the medical center.

and I said no, no I am at work, I thought it was going to be by phone. And she was going to hung up at that moment. And she said well okay, you need to phone again and I said no, no I can talk now, I am at work but I can talk with you.

She said, was wrong. Just like that, was wrong. And I said, well, 10 days ago, I couldn't talk, I couldn't move, and I was scared, and I just, I made this phone call. And she said, if it's about your mental health, you need to phone again. That was the conversation. That's it. I shouldn't have phoned. Why I phoned? Because I was scared. First of all, the shutdown,

have nothing to do with mental health.

I just, I was just asking for maybe some, just like, you will be fine. Some advice, some kind words. Actually, that's what I needed. Well, that was the conversation. And that's how things work in here. There's no compassion. There is no, no only understanding, no. I was talking about sat down, nothing to do with mental health.

But still you could have said, I'm sorry, are you sure you are okay? I'm really sorry, you needed to wait 10 days. So, you know, there was nothing like that. And it happens all the time, constantly. Going to a specialist, I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about the people I have supported for years. I'm talking about very vulnerable people, homeless people.

They go, sometimes these people, get letters at home for the specialist. They cannot go because they are truly depressed in bed. So they are taking off the way, especially the appointment, they have not been there. And then you read letters, discharge, because treatment not needed anymore.

And this person has been depressed, not able to visit the specialist. Things like that constantly.

Nic (44:17)

I think the health systems across different countries are going to be varied and the strain on them is going to be varied as well.

Pili (44:26)

I don't know if things are gonna change. Maybe with time things change. I have no idea, but right now I see the same complaints. They do audits to community mental health centers every year. You don't see the complaints there. So where are my complaints? They destroy things. They fake.

Is that what is happening?

Nic (44:47)

quite concerning.

Pili I'd love to change the conversation and jump over to some giftedness. So giftedness is often overlooked or even misunderstood. So how does being both autistic and gifted complicate identity and wellbeing?

Pili (45:03)

But I think we can talk a little bit about that, but...

In my case, I didn't know I had these abilities until my 40s. There were hints there, For example, I remember one thing. So was in my 20s, I was in Spain. I was working already as a prison officer. And in my days off, I had a lot of days off, so I decided to study. And I studied to become

inspector for the Spanish government, social security inspector. I studied lying in bed. I bought like 10 books at that time, that was in the 90s. I bought books and I studied for six months just lying down in bed. I went to the first exam and I remember

Outside the building there was this another student and he was talking about what we were had been a start It was the first time I met him, but he was talking I have been a studying this for three years with private tutors and all of these right and I was in my mind was like well I studied six months lying in bed and I think I'm ready and he said What up? He said something like about a specific

topic and I had no idea what he was talking about and I thought here you go I even maybe bought the wrong books probably and then I passed the exam I passed another exam and another exam so I got a letter a letter from the government saying congratulations so I passed all the exams and I started crying right but

Did I cry because of joy? Like, oh, I had done this. No, I cried because I had changed my mind and I wanted to be a window cleaner. I was around 23, 24, right? And I cried because I thought I was letting down the government. That was how naive and how my sensitivity, empathy for others.

I had no idea. So and then with time, now that I know what I know, when this student told me about this topic and I thought I had I have no idea what you're talking about. I must bought other books. Now I know what happened. My brain already had discharge. So when I study, my brain is able to take things out and know they're not important. That's not going to happen.

And so that's why I'm able to get more information in less time because I know exactly where to go and where to look. Now I know, but at that time I didn't know. So all these hints were there, but because of my trauma, I was not able to see. Now it's different, it's still challenging, and being gifted means all these things

abstract thinking, so I think knowing words. That's something that is difficult for people to understand. I don't think in words. I think in pictures and that's very artistic as well. I think in pictures, images or scenarios. And my communication sometimes I am stuck and I don't know how to express myself because I need to say something using

linear thinking when I am not thinking in a linear way. That is another thing that we actually need to do for others.

Nic (48:26)

So what happens when neurodivergent voices are silenced or dismissed?

Pili (48:32)

Basically

we lost amazing people, creative thinkers. Our thinking, how we are able to join dots. mean, People with ADHD, the way they tell stories, that's amazing how they are three, four, five characters at the same time.

That's so unbelievable, no?

Nic (48:57)

Hmm.

Pili (48:58)

I really think, sometimes I think about this, neurodivergent people is the next evolution in human beings. Think about it. The AI doesn't think in linear. It thinks in patterns. That's how AI connect dots. That's how neurodivergent people think.

So.

Nic (49:18)

Yeah, I mean, I think there's been several studies already that have come out and said that autistic people write like AI. And if you look at that, it's all around pattern recognition and the way that they express their voices. I think that the studies came out because autistic individuals at universities were being flagged as using AI for their assignments.

But when they actually went back and reflected it was actually because the individual wrote so similarly to the way that an AI would present their information.

Pili (49:49)

it is yeah

Nic (49:51)

So then turning the mic over to you, do you have a question for me?

Pili (49:54)

I think I did. The question is, after this conversation that we have had, is there something that shed light on you, something different that I have said that you didn't know because you do this, you you are all the time talking with neurodivergent people.

Nic (50:12)

Yeah, think for me, I mean, you've definitely opened my eyes to the current crisis over in the UK with respect to mental health, right? At the same time, it's been quite insightful to get some insight into the way that your mind works as both a gifted individual, but also someone that is autistic.

From what I've now gathered and understood, your brain works in different types of operating systems. It depends on the situation that you are in as to which operating system that you're intending to use at the time.

So that could be that you're home, you're just wanting to unwind, don't shut down, so you're going to go home, get changed, and just be comfortable in being yourself. And that's okay. But then you're going to adjust your operating system or the software that you're running at the time when you're in the office, and that's going to ensure that...

you're able to fully focus and do the work that you need to do. And if that means, you know, going and having your coffee at 12 o'clock or one o'clock in the afternoon to ensure that your battery is recharging for the remainder of the day, that's okay. I think the beauty of this conversation is that it's real and it highlights the fact that

Everybody is unique. Everybody is different. We all do run different operating systems and we all have different ways of ensuring that our bodies recharge and that is going to look very different depending on the individual you are.

Pili (51:43)

my sense of justice.

Nic (51:44)

Absolutely.

So then finally, from your perspective, what gives you hope when it comes to changing the current systems that are in place?

Pili (51:52)

to

want what the typical, want comprehension, understanding, kindness. That's the only thing that brings big changes.

and just look at each other. You don't know the history behind that person. And also, this is very important, things can change overnight.

And you can be okay today, you know, your house, your work, your money, you don't care about others. maybe tomorrow you're in another situation and maybe you start understanding.

Nic (52:21)

Absolutely. Pili, thank you for jumping onto the Inclusive Shift today. I really do appreciate your time.

Pili (52:26)

Thank you very much. See you soon.

Nic (52:28)

So before we close up today, I just want to reflect on something that Pili shared. Neurodivergent people aren't difficult because they see too much. They're difficult for systems where they've never been designed or questioned. When we prioritize depth over speed, performance over ethics, we don't just exclude difference, we silence insight.

The shift Pili invites us into isn't about accommodation. It's about redesigning the system so that truth, safety and intelligence can actually surface. Thank you for listening to the Inclusive Shift.