Embracing Neurodiversity in Culture, Work, and Leadership: An interview with Amin Abbas

and recently has stepped into the startup world through Antlers Residency. Outside of work, he leads a Palestinian Dabkeh dance group and is the president of the Palestine National Day at Federation Square, creating space for culture, connection and community. Amin also brings a perspective of living with ADHD and navigating both a high performance environments and creative expression.

And what happens when those two worlds don't always align? Amin welcome to the Inclusive Shift.

Amin (01:00)

Thanks for having me, Nic.

Nic (01:01)

Amin I'd love to start outside of work. Can you tell us a little bit more about your connection to Dabkeh and what that means to you?

Amin (01:11)

For sure. Palestinian, Dabkeh is a dance that has been traditionally performed and danced in the Levantine countries, which are Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and some parts of Iraq as well. Now, the origins of Dabkeh goes back to when Palestinians used to build their homes back from stone and the rooftops were made of straw and mud.

And so the straw made the structure of the roof and the mud was what filled the gap. so to actually have the mud stick onto the straw, they would press it with their feet. that process is called Dabkeh, which is to actually, Dabkeh translates to stomping. And so they used to stomp their feet on the mud on the rooftops ⁓ to build their homes. And so that...

actually transformed from a method of building our homes to then becoming a dance because they would do it in synchronization and they would sing when they were doing this activity. And so to me, it relates to firstly, my ancestry and knowing its origins of that this is how my ancestors would have built their homes back in Palestine. And secondly, I have a connection to it because our family has

Long been performing Dapke, my grandfather, rest his soul, never got chance to meet him. He used to lead the Dapke line in Palestine. My cousin has been performing and teaching Dapke since he was a teenager and he actually taught me Dapke. And so I feel a deep connection to it, not just through the fan, but also through my heritage and that there's this responsibility for me to not just preserve the...

the culture and the dance, also to showcase it to people, but also to give Palestinians the opportunity to see and indulge in a part of their culture that is so beautiful and meaningful, but also so unique to us. think Dabkeh something that a lot of people look at, say, this is a really cool dance. So it gives them an opportunity to actually indulge in something that is so beautiful and meaningful to them.

Nic (03:20)

Thank you for sharing. It sounds like a beautiful piece of culture to continue to share with the world.

Nic (03:25)

So what does leading the dance group and cultural events give you that maybe work doesn't give you?

Amin (03:30)

Yeah, so to answer this question, I think it's good to highlight what it is that motivates me and what drives me. I've always been a person who has enjoyed taking on leadership roles, but I've also been someone who's what my purpose is to influence people positively, to leave a lasting impression on them, to leave, to feel like I have either taught them something meaningful or I've entertained them in some way and they leave feeling better.

after having met me or because they feel like their life's been richer, they've found more fulfillment or they've learned something. And so what I've found is that throughout my work doing consulting work is that a lot of it is providing recommendations, it's leading projects, it's working on certain initiatives, but it's not impacting people personally in such an extensive way.

or in an extensive manner. And so I haven't found that as much in work and as much as I found some elements of my work rewarding, particularly when it's about delivering to clients expectations and you get feedback from client and it's positive. I have wanted to get something more from people generally, from the wider public. And so by being a part of this Dabkeh group, I have found myself

not just enjoying the dance for me personally, but I've also found a lot of people loved watching the dance. And a lot of them actually really admired the dance from afar. A lot of them would tell me, I wish I knew Dabkeh. I wish I could do Dabkeh but I just can't do Dabkeh. And so I thought to myself, anyone can do Dabkeh. I I picked it up eight years ago. I didn't just pick it up right away. It's something that requires practice, but also time. And...

So what I've started is that over the years, I've started to really practice and become more proficient at Dabkeh, but also build my confidence in being able to teach Dabkeh and being able to perform it quite confidently on stage, even if it's at a wedding or if it's at a cultural event. And so I've opened up those opportunities for me to actually perform Dabkeh at more events in front of crowds that are

Palestinian but also non-Palestinian so we get so it aligns with that mission of me wanting to showcase my beautiful culture and how rich it is but also by teaching Dabkeh I have been running beginners classes for the last year and a little bit and the feedback that I've been getting is that people are just Palestinians are feeling more connected to their identity they feel like

they're more connected to their ancestry. And when you think about it, because we're so far away, Palestine is, we can't enter Palestine as equal citizens because of the apartheid system that exists there. there's all Palestinians that are discouraged or wouldn't actually go to visit Palestine for those reasons. And so I'm bringing Palestine to them by teaching them the dance and then getting them involved in the dance. And so now when they see a Dabkeh line ⁓ at an engagement or at a wedding or

celebration of some sort, they will actually feel more confident and compelled to actually participate in Dabkeh And that feeling is what really brings me a lot of fulfillment and joy is knowing that I have given something to someone where they have felt more connected to their roots. Or if it's a non-Palestinian, it's making them feel connected to a culture and actually

looking at Palestine and saying, Palestine is more than what is just on the news. Palestine is the beautiful food, the beautiful dresses, but it's also this beautiful dance, which is Dabkeh. And we need to preserve it, but we also need to showcase it and share it and get everyone to know about the Dabkeh And hopefully we can, if I could teach everyone Dabkeh, I wish I could.

Nic (07:25)

Thank you so much for sharing. I'm curious, do you notice an overlap between how you show up creatively with Dabkeh and how your ADHD shows up?

Amin (07:35)

100%. I totally noticed that. I think my ADHD creativity comes up, especially when it's something that I find more fulfillment in, which is very interesting. know, in the first, I'm 31 now, in the first 27 years of my life, I would constantly think I'm not a creative person. And I've convinced myself to say I'm not a creative person. I...

I'm terrible with drawing, I'm terrible with painting, I'm terrible with coming up with creative stuff. And I've literally convinced myself that I am not a creative person. But then it was only in the last two to three years where I've taken on more leadership roles with the Dabkeh group or with Palestine National Day or with other spaces outside of my work, I've noticed that I do have...

a lot of creative juices running through my head and I come up with a lot of great ideas. So this whole time of my early childhood and even the majority of my adulthood, me telling myself I'm not creative, that was actually firstly, I think that was kind of a framing that I came up with because I was really bad at arts when I was in school and I always got terrible marks for arts and I hated the arts class.

Secondly, that was because I ended up studying engineering, which requires a bit of creativity, but also it's quite, it's a form of work where you're limited by standards. And so you have to follow standards. can't just go broad as broad as much as you can. You're kind of limited as to what scope you could design, what you could design an engineering apparatus to be.

The third thing is that because I have just not been involved in work, which has pressed me to be more creative. But then by putting myself in position where, for example, I became the lead of the Dabkeh group, and now I have to come up with routines, dance routines, new dance routines, I have to sit down and think about, okay, what are some of the moves that we can do? I've instance this is where I've looked at moves and I've...

there are that I know, I've copied moves from videos I've seen online, but there's other times where I've had to actually come up with something new for the dance group. I've had to come up with something, a new idea for how we, for new performances that we can do at the Palestine National Day event. so now I'm even noticing myself, am telling myself, when people ask me, I creative? I tell them I am, absolutely. I'm quite a creative person because I have all these wild ideas that come up.

And it's coming up to me naturally and I'm implementing. there's, there's, it's not just ideas that are coming up. It's that I'm actually have the agency to apply those ideas straight away. And so it's, it's really highlighted to me. And, know, there's a lot of people that say your ADHD can be your strength. That's where I saw the strength. And I'm embracing that part of my ADHD to say, okay, that's the strength of my ADHD is that I'm able to come up with all these crazy ideas, but I'm also, there's agency for me to apply it.

And when I'm applying it and people are seeing the move and the dance and they say, that was really cool. I really like this move. That's giving me that positive reassurance and feedback that my creativity is doing something positive.

Nic (10:59)

So

it sounds like it's really shifted your perspective and helped you better understand your creative side at the same time.

Amin (11:05)

That's right, yes.

Nic (11:06)

So you've described your ADHD as lifelong, right? So when did you first start to understand ADHD in your lifetime?

Amin (11:16)

Yeah, good question. So I grew up in Kuwait in the Middle East. so Kuwait didn't have the sort of awareness into mental health disorders or mental disorders like autism ADHD or the like. And so my whole life, I've just assumed other kids were like me.

that their thoughts were all over the place. They dreamed a lot that they struggled to study as much. They hated studying as much as I hated studying. That, and so for my whole life, I just assumed that people were like this. But then it wasn't up until maybe I was, was during COVID, was booming. And so the whole,

the social media economy became a thing and people were talking about ADHD and how does ADHD manifest in adults and so I was really fascinated by it. like okay, this sounds very much like me and I'm reading about all the symptoms and all the processes people were putting in place to help them with managing their ADHD. Then I started even questioning people who have known me for

a long time, even since my birth, like my siblings. And I asked them, you know, this is what I've been learning about ADHD. Does this sound like me? They were like, Amin this is a hundred percent new since the day you were born, hyperactive and unable to stay in one spot for too long. were daydreaming constantly. Mom had to spend like six hours, seven hours every single day after school trying to teach you about what you learned at school, but other things. And so I,

It's fascinating to me because my whole life, my parents were unaware of ADHD. They still don't accept, they still don't have the belief that they don't accept mental disorders. That's just them and that's okay. That's their generation. But for me, I'm just grateful that I learned about it five years ago or four years ago.

when I was 26, 27, and I have been able to take the correct medication, but also put more importantly, put in place the right processes to help me in, uh, in, working with ADHD, but also it's helped me plan my future better in terms of where I can take my career and where to put my energy as well. So when I've understood that my, that ADHD has all these traits, I was like, okay, if ADHDs are creative,

and they get bored with things very quickly and they like to move at a fast pace, let me put myself in those environments or even if I can, let me create those environments in areas where I can. And so I have been doing that and hence, know, me trialing out the startup scene over the last year and I have found myself enjoying that thoroughly. I love a high-paced environment. I love an environment where it's challenging, where it's...

pushing me outside of my comfort zone constantly. Where there's something to learn and fail every day. it not just has shifted me in terms of how I behave and how I work, but it's also shifted in terms of how I view my own life and my career path and where I put my energy and how I dedicate my energy outside of work.

Nic (14:48)

thank

you so much for sharing it. You're right. It's, I think COVID was, was a time where a lot of people spent time better understanding themselves because we're all, or at least here in Australia, we're all locked in our houses for three to six months and we didn't have much for choice.

But I think it's definitely helped a lot of people better understand themselves.

Even though, you know, we've got alot of mainstream media going, you know, we're in a crisis or a pandemic because of the number of people that are being diagnosed. I think a recent, recent report from the government actually come out and said, well, we're not actually in a crisis. It's just that there's a lot of people that were, that are being late diagnosed and

this is kind of an unexpected result, which is good to see that they're starting to put the pieces together.

Amin (15:41)

That's right. like, it's upon getting the diagnosis and talking to the psychiatrist about it, it suddenly made sense that, you know, my childhood, not, not every child hated studying as much as I did. Not every child needed six to seven hours with their mother to teach them after school like I did. Not every child was daydreaming every five minutes in class like I was. It just made sense that

Okay, this is why I behaved in this way. It's not that I am incapable. It's that I'm wired differently. And so when I had changed that framing in my head to go from, because it was literally me thinking, why am I not able to focus or read or enjoy reading as much as others or be able to sit down and focus for as long as others? It that shift of saying, okay,

I have a different brain from other people, therefore I have to operate differently and therefore it's a chemical imbalance. I no longer was criticizing myself. It was more so, okay, I'm accepting of who I was and then I have to work with it and see how I can work with it best.

Nic (16:52)

So then if you were to describe your brain to someone that doesn't have experience with ADHD, how would you explain it?

Amin (16:59)

It's like a, I think this is an example that my psychiatrist has given or someone's given. It's like an intersection. Like let's assume instead of four streets, it's six streets intersecting. The traffic lights always green for all of them. And cars are just going like from all of these lights and all of these streets. Like my brain could be thinking about a gazillion things.

in a single minute and it's not because I'm bored or it's not because I am not concentrating. It's just because my brain is just like that. could be in like, I could be fascinated by something and it's something I'm really into and then I'll just remember something and my brain goes there. You know, if I'm doing dabkeh my brain will remember all I have to do.

my taxes for something here. If I'm doing my taxes, I remember this. I could remember it's just so many thoughts running through my head. some people find it exhausting. I actually find it thrilling in a way. But also it does distract a bit from, let's say I'm in a meeting, it's a one hour meeting. After the 30 minute mark, I find myself sometimes

my brain is like, it just goes to other places. I mean, even in recording this podcast is like when I've stopped speaking, I find my brain is already like firing up thinking about other things. So it's just about accepting that and accepting the thoughts and then just letting it pass and coming back to the moment. So it is a very busy brain with lots of activity.

Nic (18:45)

Yeah, so it's like trying to make sure that you're focusing on one single strain of thought as opposed to the thousand other thoughts that are currently going through your head at the same time.

Amin (18:58)

Correct, pretty much. hit the nail on the head.

Nic (19:00)

So you've also mentioned that when you're working on something that you're passionate about, uh you could succeed massively. What does that look like for you?

Amin (19:09)

so a recent example I can give you is that I got super into a specific part of dabkeh, which is how to lead the dabkeh line with a stick. And so I would find myself watching videos on repeat, on repeat.

How do other people hold the stick? How do they throw the stick? How they manage the stick? All of that stuff. And so I was just so fascinated by it and I was like, wow, this is so cool. I want to do that. And so I find myself just hours on end watching those videos, watching those videos. And so...

At some point, then while I'm watching those videos, there's other thoughts coming into my head, but then I purposely will be like, okay, but this is really important for me right now. I'm just going to focus on this. And so I find myself that there's going to be moments where I am hyper fixated or hyper focused. Those moments don't come about too often, but when they do, it's usually because of something that's novel.

something that is that I find interesting. And it's going to be something that I would like to do or would like to learn about. And so if I'm able, if it does cross all of those three, generally, then yeah, I would, I would become quite hyper fixated on it. It's, it's, it's interesting, even in my own personal life, if there's a topic that I get hyper fixated about, and I really want to learn about, just, that's just where my brain goes into and

Recently, I joined a boxing gym and in the lead up to the boxing gym, I was watching a lot of UFC. It was just nonstop UFC matches on YouTube. And so for me, it was like, well, if that's just where my brain, if all I wanted in that phase was just to learn about fighting, that's all I'd watch and I just got pleasure out of

So it's a very, yeah, it likes diversity, but it also, if it finds something interesting and novel and something I'd like to learn, Hyperfix states on it easily.

Nic (21:07)

Then on the flip side then, when work feels dry or really disengaging, what happens?

Amin (21:12)

disengaging. It becomes more difficult, to be honest, it becomes more difficult for me to be creative, to be productive, to generate something meaningful. I find myself not performing the best when I'm not in the environment or doing work that I will find very challenging, very diverse.

and also moving at a very fast pace. Some of the most meaningful projects I've worked on in my career have been technology projects. And most of my technology projects have been construction tech. So applying technologies on construction sites, whether it be internet of things or AI visualization tools. The reason I found those most rewarding is because

Every day was a different day. There was something different to do every day. There was agency in when I was able to do It wasn't bound by standards. was me taking it was sometimes it was a technology where I could define what it could look like based on what the end user is telling me. But then I had direction as to like how it gets developed, what it looks like, how it's going to be applied on site. And so those projects were,

I look back at them and I say those were a great time. They were not dry at all. They were so much fun. I'd love to do those projects again. And they were the projects which actually realized a great benefit. remember some of the pretty much, I'd say most of them had a positive ROI. Whereas the projects which I didn't find as engaging were the ones where it lacked variety. didn't have a lot of it didn't have a lot of perceived importance to it.

it was bound by certain standards. was bound by what bureaucracy or whatever it may be. So that's what I mean is that like for me to pave the path of my career so that I took on certain roles that enabled or empowered my ADHD or saw ADHD as my strength, those were where it really, really shone. And yeah, I think that that's

That's basically, to answer your question, it's those environments and those projects and those people I work with that match that.

Nic (23:32)

So I'm curious then, how would you or how do you go about navigating the ability of having that high capability and you know you have the full ability of being able to do it but you have really low engagement in actually wanting to do the activity that you've been asked to do. And it could be one of those projects where it's just the same thing in day in day out.

Amin (23:57)

Yeah. So with those kinds of instances, I really try and make sure that I break it down into smaller chunks. And I also make sure that I try and space it out if possible. so an example of that will be, just say I have to prepare a slide deck for like a proposal slide deck for a consulting, a consulting gig. Proposals.

are pretty much like you can copy paste what you've done before, but then also there's a bit of element of needing to generate a specific timeline for that project, specific scope, a lot of writing. Sometimes they'll give you a form and you have to fill out the form and it'll be like the minimum 200 words per response. And if anyone understands ADHD, we hate writing.

that we want to avoid writing, we would much rather transcribe whatever we say. But those facilities don't exist for me in that workspace. So then what I try and do is that number one, okay, what I think, what can I do with my work? Can I break down my work so then I could, for example, work on this proposal for a little bit, but then work on something else just to add a bit of variety, or maybe jump into a meeting, space out my meeting so that I have something to come in the way.

Give me, get that chemical balance there. So I get that the, the serotonin that I need or whatever it is, the chemicals I need in my brain and then be able to focus on the proposal again. All right. I do that. second thing is, I change my environment? So can I work, for example, I like to work in a place where there's a lot of lighting. And so if the lighting, if I have a lot of lighting that offsets the, less, I guess it offsets the low engagement.

So if there's light shining on me, I'm getting that serotonin, I'm getting that dopamine that at least helps me in being able to focus for a little bit. Thirdly, I've actually been phasing out my medication. So I take Ritalin to help with my focus and the chemical imbalance, but I'm actually shifting away from it and I'm actually trying out more natural supplements. like creatine monohydrate, MCT oil.

So those have been and if I have those it does help me focus for a little bit So those are just some of the tactics that I do and if all else fails I just try and Like I literally just try and tell myself like this is like try and make this fun That last tactic doesn't usually work It's it's more of like a mental model and I I it's like lying to myself but

There's going to be instances where I'll try and tell myself that you have buying into this. This is something meaningful. This is something important. Like just get, break it down, finish one page at a time. Don't think about, don't be overwhelmed by, you know, looking over the 50 slides in the deck, just focus one slide at a time. Then you can move on to the next one. So it is a lot of shifting my, firstly shifting my way of working.

spacing it out, spacing out work, shifting my environment so that it tells with the chemical imbalance, shifting the supplements, what I've taken in my body and also shifting how I perceive the task in front of me.

Nic (27:07)

it's interesting. You've mentioned adjusting your environment and trying to have high light. A lot of neurodivergent people would prefer a lower light environment, not to mention, specifically for me, I hate noisy offices. I cannot stand them. I get so distracted.

By being in an open plan office with so many different things going on around me people being at their desks and meetings or just having a conversation Because it's like what are they talking about? Nope? Go back to the thing. I'm meant to be focusing on at the same time

Amin (27:44)

Absolutely.

I'm the same. I hate offices that are noisy. For me, when I was, one of my jobs had little cubicles and so every day I went to that same cubicle because it had good lighting, it was very quiet and very secluded and none of the office noise ever was able to come in.

And I was able to be so productive just by being in that environment. yeah, I'm the same as you.

Nic (28:15)

So, Amin you've also mentioned that you haven't really raised your ADHD in the workplace before. I'm curious to see what has influenced that decision for you.

Amin (28:26)

I think I, so number one, it's probably because it's not a question that someone's asked me. So it doesn't, I don't think about it. don't raise it. Number two.

I have told myself that ADHD is not, know, that there's the whole argument within, I guess, a lot of neurodivergent people is that it's a disability. I don't consider it to be a disability because with disability, it's like people associated with being unable to do something. I'm happy to be wrong about this, but I guess, you know, just to explain to you my reasoning as to why I don't mention it. I view

ADHD and neurodivergency as a disorder in the sense that my thoughts are not in order. My thoughts are just everywhere. But order can be introduced or you can bring some order to it. And so I've always thought to myself, well, this sounds like it's something that I can work with and then regardless of the work I do during the day as full time, I can adjust for it myself.

to ensure that I'm performing the best I can. But then having said that, I look back at a lot of my career and had I raised ADHD to them, I almost wonder, know, in hindsight after you asked the question as to what would have changed, what changes can they have put in place to actually empower my ADHD? Maybe they could have put on...

put me on some different projects, give me some different responsibilities. Maybe they could have, instead of putting me as to like one project for a prolonged duration, giving me three or four five projects that I could be sitting on. And you know, it's interesting, there's a lot of people that complain, I'm on across too many projects. Whereas I'm here, I'm like, it's great. I love so many projects because there's just variety in every single day. So it's not something that

I have thought to myself that I would want to raise. And I think there's a bit of shame to it as well, to be honest, Nic, in a sense that I don't want the, my manager to say, Oh, okay. I have an ADHD person in front of me. I'm going to have to make a accommodate for them. So there's also, I won't lie. That is definitely something that I've put on myself is to like, view it as something that putting extra burden on my manager having to accommodate for that.

But in actual fact, if I had someone coming up to me and telling me I'm, uh, I'm dyslexic or I'm autistic or I'm, colorblind, whatever it is, like I, I would make the effort to accommodate for them. So honestly, I think I should put it, I should be more open about my ADHD with people and be able to express that so that people can accommodate for that and actually become more curious and think about how they can accommodate for that.

Nic (31:20)

Yeah, I mean, it is interesting, right? So the technically any manager or even any organization is legally not allowed to ask you if you have a disability or a diagnosis. So you, you as an individual have full control over whether you advise a company or not. I guess the, where I was coming from.

And I can completely appreciate the stigma in a lot of organizations, especially around engineering, where it may be seen as a detriment as opposed to something that may be able to support you. But

for me, if one of my employees comes to me and says, hey, look, you know, I've got ADHD. I'm like, okay, how can I best support you? What do you need from me to get the best outcome for you along with the best outcome?

me at the same time. and

you know, it's, helped me understand what you need to do your, your job, the best that you can do your job. Right. and that, that isn't always the case because a lot of managers don't necessarily have the understanding that I may have. and I think that's where, where this podcast for me is also kind of coming out as like,

I want to help line managers or managers better understand different brains and different ways of working at the same time.

Amin (32:35)

Absolutely. it's interesting you mentioned that Nic, and I'm glad that at least you taking it on board from your employees is that I think early on in my career, I've had some empathetic and some sympathetic managers, but I've also had other managers which didn't really express as much sympathy and empathy. And so for me, I've probably put that pressure on myself as to not put any...

My philosophy has been don't make things tougher on your manager. Just make it make your job and make your manager's job as easy as possible. But having said that though, like in hindsight, I'm realizing now that like by me not telling them that I have ADHD and then not accommodating for it, I may have actually been impacting my productivity and results negatively because of not actually informing them about my diagnosis. And so

I'm glad you told me about them not asking legally, and they're not allowed to ask. So at least it's little bit more of a proactive movement from my end where I would have to share that with them.

Nic (33:44)

Yeah, I mean, look, it's interesting, right? Like a lot of managers will probably never ask the question or even raise it with their HR department to go, I maybe think this person has ADHD. Sometimes it

Amin (33:59)

Yeah.

Nic (34:00)

happens, but for the most part, it's completely up to the individual. For me, it's not additional work for a line manager to have an

to get a better understanding of how their employees operate and to get, to better understand how to get the best outcome from them, right? It's, because if I can better understand you as an individual, then I can understand how to get the most out of you to make the company a better place at the same time.

Amin (34:30)

Absolutely. No, thanks for sharing that insight, And it's good to hear that from you is that it does create a, it's part of that creating that safe culture, but also creating a culture of high productivity. And part of it is being able to create that environment for the employees where they can thrive and shine.

Nic (34:52)

all about psychological safety and looking after the well-being of your employees. I'm

Amin (34:56)

Absolutely.

Nic (34:58)

curious then, from your perspective, do you think that workplaces would have made it easy or hard for people to talk about their neurodivergence?

Amin (35:08)

I think workplaces, it depends on the workplace. I think social media and personal lives has made it easier to talk about neurodivergency.

but the workplaces have not caught up in that sense. And the reason I say this is because I think a lot of workplaces talk about inclusion as something to impress or something that is aesthetically pleasing. But when it comes to actually practicing inclusion in the holistic sense,

including neurodivergence I don't think that conversation has been raised or has reached to the workplaces. When we I think it's good that we're seeing a lot more workplaces catering for people with special needs. It's catering for people from the queer community. It's catering for maybe for...

other people who may require some certain attention, health, you know, maybe they've had an accident or health concern. Neurodivergence hasn't become a conversation that I have seen entering into workplaces. And I think a lot of it is because maybe perhaps executives are not suffering from Neurodivergence or they don't know enough people that suffer from Neurodivergence or they're not aware of Neurodivergence or just the impact of Neurodivergence and how people

have to work with Neurodivergence I do think if you're working in a normal corporate workplace, some Neurodivergent people might excel, but I would think that not that workplaces are designed by new, by a typical brains. so those workplaces would people with a typical brains would or typical brains would have, would thrive in those environments.

So it's a bit like, you know, when I'm thinking about like you have this, if you don't suffer from it, you don't really think about it. Or if you don't know people who suffer from it, you don't really think about it. But then you hear about it and then you're like, okay, it's not something that I'm impacted by. Therefore, it's not something I'm gonna have to be thinking about too much.

But it's also not something you physically see as well. If I walk into a workplace and I have a broken leg, people would want to make some concessions or they wouldn't want to be able to help me work with a broken leg. If someone's had a heart attack or someone's got special needs that you can physically see that. Well, oftentimes you can't see Neurodivergence unless you're spotting the signs.

and you know about what neurodivergence looks like, if it's the social cues, if it's behaviors. But unless you're told about it, it's not something that will be, that workplaces are really making it easy to talk about. And I think it's not, one of the things that most impressed me was that I just did an online test with a management consulting firm just over the weekend. And they actually asked,

me, do you have do suffer from a Neurodivergence of like ADHD, autism, etc. And that was the first time I was ever asked that question on an online on on any form. And then or any test. And so I thought to myself, okay, this is interesting. I take that box. And it actually gave me more time to complete the online test and the segments because it knew that

reading was going to be a challenge for me. And truly, like some of the questions had like, let's say it was, it was me reading 15, 20 sentences and five sentences in, I would have to go back and reread the second or third sentence because I already forgot what it said or I just did not fully grasp what the content was in there. And there was all rereading throughout the whole test, but the test already, you know, it's already accommodated for that.

And so for me, reflecting on that experience, I was thinking that that was beautiful. And I'm really glad that they gave me that extra time because I felt like they understood the disorder that I had. And so just made it more challenging. So it's nice to see that a workplace has done that. And I would like to see more workplaces be more accommodating for neurodivergent people because they...

might need a little bit of extra time here, but they'll excel in those other areas and they'll do absolutely be stars in those other areas.

Nic (40:03)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think one of the one of the big four of it was EY did a massive study on neurodivergence in the workplace. I think they released a report late last year.

It was like a hundred and something pages. It was huge. And then JP Morgan also did one recently as well. I think it was last year as well, where they said autistic individuals outperform most employees by 150%, which is crazy. I guess one of

Amin (40:35)

That's insane.

Nic (40:36)

the things that, one of the things that for me is curious is if,

Neurodivergence isn't becoming a conversation topic in the workplace when we've got, you know, one in five people almost across the world that is neurodivergent. And, you know, there are big names across the across the world. You know, Richard Branson, CEO of Virgin is dyslexic. You know, Will.i.am, you know,

Everyone knows who I am from the from the Black Eyed Peas. He's also, you know, one of the biggest music producers in the world. He's ADHD.

Amin (41:18)

Mm.

Nic (41:19)

But people don't talk about these things as much as, you know, we possibly could. And to maybe remove some of that stigma as well. I'm so glad that you had that experience with the consulting company, because it's I think it's something that I'm starting to see more.

more companies ask that question ahead of time and then go, hey, you know, what additional accommodations may you need during the interview process? You know, do you need questions ahead of time? Do you need time to think during the interview? How can we best support you throughout this process? And I think it's so great to see that we're finally starting to take those steps.

Amin (42:04)

I I totally agree. it's fascinating to hear about the research about autism and autistic people outperforming typical brains. And it makes me even wonder like, if was that in an environment which was built by people with typical brains? Like what if we could actually create an environment where

autistic people thrived, like what would the productivity of them be? It would be 200%, 250%, you know, so it's, it really is fascinating, just the amazing things neurodivergent people can achieve and do.

Nic (42:41)

Yeah, there's so much in that space. there's, I think there's another book called The Canary Code that I've read late last year as well. And that was all about primarily in your autistics, but neurodivergence in general where I'm not sure if you understand the concept of canary in a coal mine. Yeah.

Amin (43:03)

Yes, I have, but yeah, just explain

it to me again just for the purpose of the book.

Nic (43:07)

So

um canaries use a stack of oxygen because they're constantly moving around and because they consume so much oxygen, as soon as they get to a point within a coal mine that has little to no oxygen, if they collapse or pass out, then it's a sign of danger to say, hey,

Amin (43:28)

Hmm.

Nic (43:29)

you guys need to stop, otherwise you're going to die. And

Amin (43:32)

Yeah.

Nic (43:32)

they use those in the coal mines for...

a long time to help support and save lives. Interestingly, if you put someone that is autistic or a neurodivergent individual into a neurotypical workplace, they can typically tell you what's wrong with the workplace in a very short amount of time, whether it's culture, whether it's

management, it's policies and procedures that need to be optimized to make the company a better place to work in the future.

Amin (44:03)

Yeah, that's fascinating. And I think that's so true. And I think a bit of it is that neurodivergent people sometimes pick up on those things, like the social cues, maybe a lot better. think I'm not sure about autism, but as an ADHD person, I pick up on social cues better, I find, than others would be. Like I can read people's expressions. I can sense their energies a bit off, whatever it may be. And so I think that...

that does make sense to when you mentioned that they can pick up what's wrong with the workplace a lot more quickly because I sense that too.

Nic (44:40)

So

Amin you've balanced consulting startups, leading your cultural dance group. Where do you feel the most like yourself?

Amin (44:52)

Probably... Look, I feel like myself and all of them, it's just it's not to say that I'm being inauthentic in any of these environments. But the place where I can feel like I can truly showcase who I am in my complete self is when I am specifically teaching dabkeh And the reason is with teaching because

I like to be entertaining, I like to be funny, I like to crack jokes, but I also like to be quite deep and thoughtful in the way that I teach the dance. And so when I'm teaching it, I'm putting myself in a space where I'm able to cover everything that makes that fulfills me about it greatly aligns with my purpose.

is when I'm teaching when I'm teaching dabkeh because number one, people will walk out of the class of learned something. I've given people that I've enriched their lives by having them attend the class and they had fun and I've also upskilled them. And so they leave the class having gained a skill. And so I've actually given them something of meaningful value. so in that kind of specifically that role,

than that organization, that's where I feel truly like my full self. I think in startups or consulting or if I'm performing Dabkeh, there's a part of, there's parts of me that are showing up, but it's not my full me. But when I am teaching and performing with everyone,

That's when I truly feel like I'm able to just bring my whole self to that space.

Nic (46:51)

Thank you for sharing. So what does an environment then look like where you can thrive 100 %?

Amin (47:01)

So number one, it would have to be me in a leadership role. I have been described to be a good, my leadership has gotten praised before, and I find it really rewarding to be in a leadership position. I seek those proactively. Secondly, high pace. I'm a adrenaline junkie.

And so I love being in environments where there's a lot of adrenaline. And if it means that even if it's the, if it's an office space, it's about working quick, working fast. It's being in environments and a place where there is a lot of learning and I think failure is just normal to fail and it's okay to fail. And so I seek those environments where there is a lot of, it really pushes me out of my comfort zone.

And I think the last thing for me is going to be that it has to be uh safe environments where people can just hear who they are and who they truly are and be who they truly are. Authenticity is a big thing for me. also humans are just naturally inauthentic. We just are not fully authentic all the time.

To be fully authentic is a very scary thing because we're being seen for who we are completely. And I don't think I can, I don't know if anyone can ever create an environment where everyone in that space can be fully authentic and fully themselves, but at least we can get as close as possible for people to be, to feel comfortable with showing as much of themselves as they possibly can without feeling judged or without feeling.

lesser than and as someone who has ADHD and understands what it feels like to not fit in, it's, that's something that I hold very dear to my heart is that, and I do that, in my classes, especially when I'm teaching dabkeh classes, I always tell people like, we're here to have fun.

You're here enjoy the dance. If you just want to start dancing while I'm teaching, just do it. And so it's super, I love to see when people are just having a great time and they're just being themselves and they just enjoy being themselves. People need to realize that they can, that they are just naturally themselves in their sober state as they are. They are beautiful, fun people.

And so just embrace that and be yourself, just be yourself more.

Nic (49:53)

such a wonderful sentiment. I mean it is, you're right, is challenging for...

people to bring 100 % of their authentic selves to work especially where the organisation isn't set up to do so which is why we still see a lot of neurodivergent people masking as well. So then

Amin (50:12)

That's right.

Nic (50:14)

if a workplace could learn something from spaces like dance or community, what would it be?

Amin (50:26)

I would say firstly, it's one thing to talk about, to state your values or what you stand by. It's another thing to actually stand by it and to practice those values. I think workplaces should be continuously revising their purpose, their mission and their values.

every single year or every six months so that they remind themselves as to this is how we behave, this is what informs our decision making and therefore this is the culture we will create.

The second thing will be is to truly learn about the true truly learn about individuals and what makes each individual tick, but also what ticks them off and what puts them off. I remember an exercise that we did that I volunteered for an organization called 180 degrees consulting, which is a not for profit consulting group and

in my in University of Melbourne, where I was doing my MBA. And one of the exercises that they told us to do to, you know, I was team leader there and I was leading a team of consultants, they gave us this PowerPoint slide and it's about you, what are your interests? What are the things that really motivates you in work? But what are the things that you should be mindful of things that I need you to understand and to work with me on?

And so when people said, just I'm dyslexic, give me more lead up time to read things. I'm, I'm a high performer. might move too quick, etc... that created a culture of understanding and of being yourself and also embracing your identity and sharing who you are. And so I think I would love to see if workplaces actually embrace that and allow people to express who they are because.

Sometimes they forget to actually tell people who they truly are. But secondly, they might feel pressure that they don't want to bring their full authentic self to the workplace because of judgment. And therefore that does create a culture where people sometimes will feel like they can't be fully honest or they can't be fully creative or they can't be fully productive because the culture is directly or indirectly creating a fear-based culture.

or a culture of resistance rather than a culture of cultivating you as a person, individuality and your strengths.

And honestly, it's, it would just be these two things, really, just continuously revising your purpose, your mission, your values. And secondly, just to actually celebrate people's individuality and truly celebrate it. And I'm not talking about, you know, as much as we should celebrate, there's going to be independent states for different countries, there's going to be, you know,

eat festivals or Ramadan or there's going to be Easter celebrate all those absolutely I'm talking about individuals each person is going to be different each person has a story each person has something about them they are unique in their certain way we need to discover them to really to really bring the most out of them

Nic (54:06)

It reminds me of an activity that I do with my team as a new member comes on and we sort of refresh them every sort of six to 12 months where I sit down and we sit down and we explain a little bit about ourselves. So what we like to do outside of work. We explain our working style and what

what we like and don't like. So things like for me, I'm very upfront and go, I cannot handle BS. Do not give me BS because I can typically tell and I will call it out. The next one we'll jump in and explain or have a conversation about is

What are the things or the signs to help us understand when you're stressed? Is it, you know, how do we identify when your cup is full and you need to take a break? And it could be, you know, you're getting distracted. It could be that you're getting a little bit frustrated in a bit of a meeting. It could be, you know, that

when you're fully stressed, you'll be binge eating or off camera, you know, chewing on food or just because if we better understand those as an individual, then we can better understand how to support them from a team perspective as well. And then the last one

Amin (55:29)

Absolutely.

Nic (55:30)

that we love to do is how do we understand, we all understand how each other like to receive feedback.

So we sit there and we have a conversation about how each of us as an individual would prefer to receive feedback and that could be one-on-one in person or in virtual conversation, followed by say an email with constructive feedback or with activities that need to be actioned or it could be in a group setting depending on how comfortable you are with the feedback that you may be receiving.

But it's all individually looked at and reviewed. But I guess it's a bit of a challenge because to have that type of conversation, you need to ensure that you're, as a leader, being vulnerable yourself and leading by example, but not using the information that you're being given as a weapon to

manage or micromanage your team because you need to have a psychologically safe environment to have that level of conversation with your team.

Amin (56:47)

Absolutely. Absolutely. You're right on the money and thank you for sharing that. it's, I hope that this is happening on an organization-wide setting. And it's also that organizations also do this because, and I'm talking about organization, I'm talking about like executive leadership are thinking about these are the things that we should be practicing and therefore that culture.

flows down across the organization. Because if you want to cultivate a truly psychologically safe environment, it requires understanding the individual, but also making them feel accepted for who they truly are. And I think you do a great job of it from what you've been telling me, because you're exploring their individuality, and then you're catering towards it. Therefore, you're sending the signal, I'm accepting you.

as a person, I will cater for it. And I hope that more organizations will do that on a from an executive level, but also an organization wide level because psychological safety will keep people around, will get the best out of them. But also at the same time, will be a, there won't, it reduces misunderstanding. And so when you said that you call BS out, instead of it being perceived to be rude, it's actually perceived to be

productive and meaningful because at end of the day, we don't want BS being shared around or anyone lying. Let's just tell the truth. And so that is you defining the culture within your team.

Nic (58:27)

Yeah, that's so true. So Amin I'd to turn the mic over to you. Is there a question that you have for me?

Amin (58:37)

Yeah, one question for you from, you know, I haven't listened to a lot of your episodes, but I'd love to know from the people you've spoken and what you've read. How does neurodivergence or the discovery of neurodivergence impact people after they've gotten that symptom? How does it impact their work? How does it impact their career? How does it impact their lives?

What are you starting to see to be the change in workplaces, but also for people's careers when they start to understand their own selves better and their neurodivergence?

Nic (59:18)

think the one of the first things that I would say would be that everyone's obviously experience is going to be different and that's definitely evident in the conversations that I've been having. every individual is going to need their own accommodations or different, I guess you can call them accommodations or adjustments.

And that is going to be dependent on a multitude of factors, whether it's their diagnosis, whether it's their personality that contributes to parts of that as well. But the challenge, guess, as well is what the organization that they're working for is going to accept and support as a part of those adjustments that are being made.

And are they going to be made on an ongoing basis or are they only temporary? it could be an individual needs to start later and finish later because they struggle to get up in the morning. But is the organization going to be comfortable with you starting at 10 o'clock and finishing at 6 when no one else is around?

because there might be that level of trust to go, are you actually still delivering your work when no one else is here? Or it could be, you know, hey, I need to work from home most of the time because I get really distracted in the office. And what we're seeing more and more here in Australia is that we're trying to drive people back into the office, especially in banking or in consulting where

they're saying at as a minimum three to four days in the office there's no ifs or buts about it but I don't think they've factored in the direct impact on neurodivergent individuals and how potentially the productivity may actually decrease in with them being forced back into the office as well so I guess

There's so many different contributing factors that organizations need to factor in. I think one of the best things that I've seen, you know, implemented is work where you're most productive. And that's not going to always be going to work for every organization or every role within an organization, In an office setting, fine. But if you're in a manufacturing plant, you can't work from home.

So what other accommodations

Amin (1:01:37)

episode.

Nic (1:01:38)

or adjustments can you make in that work environment to support the individuals and to make it easier for them to be able to do their job?

Amin (1:01:48)

Yeah, absolutely. So follow on question, I just saw this while you were saying speaking, you told me that you do this podcast because you want to increase awareness because your kids were diagnosed. What's what world do you want to see for your kids? In terms of neurodivergence that differs from the current world we're in now.

Nic (1:02:11)

I'd love to see one um that's actually going to accept and support individuals because I guess when I first sort of started to look at neurodivergence in general roughly about four years ago, the world was a very different place. Look, there is a lot more awareness out there, there's a lot more advocates out there, there's a lot more coaches that are coaching organizations and individuals.

But I'd love to see a place where or a world where all brains are accepted and where all brains are going to be celebrated, not just those that are classified as neurotypical.

Amin (1:02:53)

agree, absolutely, absolutely. And it starts with awareness, with stuff like this, and hopefully more action for people to take neurodivergence into consideration, make accommodations or adjustments like you said.

Nic (1:03:11)

true. So then Amin what would you say to someone with ADHD who feels stuck in work ⁓ that doesn't really suit them?

Amin (1:03:23)

First thing I would say is number one, you are the master of your own life. so create, put in place processes or frameworks or adjustments so that you can at least be able to make the work that you're doing now more engaging. Secondly, and this is me not practicing what I preach, but learning from this, from

this conversation is to inform your colleagues and your manager about it. put that out there so that they see what adjustments they can make. The last thing that I would say is like your ADHD is your strength and it's your individuality.

Suppress it don't lie to yourself that it's not it's something that is debilitating to you or it's holding you back from excelling Sometimes it just needs a change in the work that you do or if it's a change in career or if it's a change in the workplace that you operate in Then just do that go seek that you Neurodivergent brains are special there is less of us than there are neurotypical brains and so

That means that we're bringing a special kind of nuance and strength into the workplace. Just embrace it, accept it. And if you can't find it in the workplace, find something that is fulfilling to you outside of the workplace, because that's going to really, that's what's going to keep you going for an even longer period and give you more meaning to your life.

Nic (1:05:03)

true. So then last question for the evening. What's something that leaders listening could do differently tomorrow? Just one simple thing that they can start to do tomorrow.

Amin (1:05:23)

Practice understanding the individual in front of you.

See

know, oftentimes we talk about, you know, wanting what's best for the person in front of us or advising them on what you think the career path that is best suited for them or whatever it is. I think more leaders should be questioning their employees and their colleagues, what really drives them.

What's your purpose? What's your mission? mean, you're not here to just earn money and get a promotion and what do you really want? And when you understand what people really want out of their lives and dig deep into that and you start to understand them as an individual, you will learn so much about them, but you'll also start to learn about how you can best motivate them so they can be the best that they can be for themselves. But then they show up to be the

best person for you as well. I attest to that not just from my own personal experience, but others I've spoken to. When they have felt more seen and understood as a worker and as an individual, they have performed way better in those environments or for those managers than they have for any other manager. I would be willing, there's one manager I think about all the time.

His name's Harmon. He was the best manager I've ever had. I would sacrifice my life for that man, for just how much he understood me and celebrated me and really wanted what's best for me. And so I absolutely encourage all leaders to do that.

Nic (1:07:17)

sharing. Amin it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show tonight and thank you for joining me.

Amin (1:07:25)

Thank you, Nic. It's been an honor. And yay to ADHDs.

Nic (1:07:31)

Thank you again.