Transformational Leadership in the Age of Neurodiversity

Laura brings over 20 years of leadership experience across HR, project management and environmental engineering. She's proudly AuDHD combining lived experience with executive insight to help leaders build genuinely inclusive, neuro-inclusive workplaces. Laura, welcome to the Inclusive Shift.

Laura Kendall (00:41)

Thanks, Nic. I am pretty excited to be here. I was just saying before we started recording, I'm really inspired by this podcast. You're making such a contribution to this shift to neuro-inclusive work. So yeah, I'm really excited to see what we're to talk about.

Nic (00:58)

Thank you, I appreciate the compliments. Laura, you've described your mission as accelerating a shift towards the future where every neuro-type and every business can work together and thrive together. To start us off, can you explain what neuro-inclusion means in practice?

Laura Kendall (01:14)

Yeah, I think when I talk about neuro inclusion, I'm really talking about designing work so that as you say, or as you mentioned there, organizations and the people in them can succeed because of their diverse brains, not in spite of them. And then in practice, I think, you know, it's obvious that means beyond moving beyond awareness campaigns and individual accommodations.

and really building the architecture of each organization so that it welcomes and values and actually leverages all those different ways of thinking and communicating and different ways of being that we have as humans. And I think it's about organizations where belonging is not contingent on someone's ability to perform neurotypical. And I think...

you know, if we think more about the practical, what that looks like in practice, rather than asking, you know, how does this one person fit in, neuro inclusive organizations ask, how can our systems, our strategy, our culture be better to work better with different kinds of brains, I reckon. And I think, you know, right off the bat, one thing that often surprises leaders is

that making little shifts that remove barriers for neurodivergent workers just makes work better for everybody. So more clarity, more choice about how you work, more sensory control. People just like, it makes so much sense when they see it, but they often remark, wow, that makes performance and engagement and wellbeing easier for everybody.

Nic (02:38)

it's a wonderful definition of neuroinclusion and I couldn't agree more. It's, you know, if you can design a workplace that helps everyone thrive, regardless of who they are or their neurotype or just the way that they want to work, then I think you've done the right thing,

Laura Kendall (02:54)

done the right

a smart thing.

Nic (02:57)

Absolutely.

So you were identified as AuDHD later in life. How did that realisation come about and what shifted once you knew you had that language?

Laura Kendall (03:06)

Hmm. It came about after really years and years of sort of bumping along between burnout and depression and really just a kind of fatigue that never seemed to go away. And I couldn't, I was really trying to work out like, I having a midlife crisis? Am I having a mid-career crisis? Am I having a horrible perimenopause? Like what is going on? And I was puzzling over it. And while I was puzzling, I was really just

drilling into all the wellbeing basics around good food and good sleep hygiene and exercise and getting outside and connecting with my nearest and dearest for support and psychotherapy and all of that. And I put all that together and it only made a really small kind of marginal difference. so one summer I was reading a couple of, I just happened to start reading a couple of memoirs by women with autism and

reading along and thinking I do that that's me I do that too okay that's interesting and so I mentioned it to my psychologist and she just kind of smiled and went yeah I was thinking about how how and when I should raise the idea of neurodivergence with you and now that you've raised it I think we should explore it so I went and did a whole lot of diagnostic screening and testing and did the autism one first and the ADHD one a couple of years later.

So then I had this formal sort of part of my identity that I didn't have words for before. And that gave me a couple of really important things. Firstly, the ability to really zero in on strategies that actually work for me and for my brain in terms of wellbeing and quality of life. And that was really life changing after those years and years of just kind of pushing through every day. And secondly, yeah, that language to describe my experiences.

in more neutral terms, not in such judgmental terms. that was really helped me not to see myself as a problem to be fixed, but as a fully fledged human being with lots of challenges, but also lots of strengths as well. And just let me be a bit softer towards myself, a bit kinder and slowly start to stop white knuckling through every day and start designing a life that kind of fits.

who I really am as opposed to who I thought I should be. Yeah, so it was absolutely life changing. I'm sure you've heard that from lots of late diagnosed neurodivergent types.

Nic (05:16)

Yeah, I have I think most of the people that I've interviewed so far have been late diagnosed other than one who was Sarah and she was early diagnosed which was extremely uncommon for women in general

But yes a lot of people especially I guess the the lost generation is what we're being called and I

Laura Kendall (05:34)

Yeah.

Nic (05:34)

guess that's purely because of

The DSM obviously changing over the years, the adjustments in the criteria of those being determined as being autistic or ADHD or bipolar or OCD have changed over that time as well, which means now...

people that are either becoming parents or that are later in life and are now becoming more aware of New different neuro types are going. actually, I think I might be autistic or I might have what ADHD or

I think it's extremely common with those that have children or the children are being diagnosed. So take myself for example, I'm still currently undiagnosed, I'm self-identified through all of the online assessments that are available,

but both my kids are both neurodivergent and AuDHD.

they are extremely different in every way, shape and form, in the way that they behave as well.

Laura Kendall (06:25)

Amazing. did

you go through that classic experience of filling in the screening forms for them and thinking, yep, I do that too, and I do that, and they do that, but I do that too.

Nic (06:34)

Yep, every single one was like, huh. And then sitting through the interviews with the psychologists for them as well and going, yep, that's me as well.

Laura Kendall (06:42)

Did you say anything at the time or did you think, no, this is about the kid?

Nic (06:45)

No, for me it was focusing on the kids to ensure that I can help support them and

Laura Kendall (06:47)

Yeah.

Nic (06:49)

ensure that they are supported enough to be able to live a normal life in doing school and being able to focus throughout that day as well.

Given that I've kind of lived, what, 37 years without being diagnosed, I'm sure a couple of years more won't hurt too much.

Laura Kendall (07:05)

won't

hurt too much. I loved what you said also about them being so different. Like, I think that's really important. Parents of neurodivergent kids know that, but folks who don't have much contact with neurodivergent people don't always know that just because you have a neurotype, you don't conform to these 12 behaviors and you do them all day every day. Yeah, yes, must be.

A lot of joy and lot of discovery working with your kids.

Nic (07:28)

It can be. mean, the way I love to see or explain different neuro types is sort of like a bell curve, right? So you might have, but most people will always kind of be portraying an average set of traits. But you could find that there are those that have either an extreme amount of traits or very little traits, but they're still under that umbrella of being autistic or ADHD or OCD or bipolar. And it's

very similar to culture as well right so if you look at something like Erin Meyers culture map you'll find something very similar where you'll understand an individual may have

what is it, a series of traits that they would, you would assume come from someone that's in say England, where they don't like to be angry or they don't, you know, they'd much prefer a cup of tea over some coffee or whatever else, but there are those that are on either end of that that would be angry or that would prefer a coffee over a tea as well. So it's...

Laura Kendall (08:26)

They're still English.

Nic (08:27)

That's right. So it's a good way to explain it, I think.

Laura Kendall (08:31)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think people are really familiar with bell curves. I often think about the spectrums as more like spider charts or circumplexes or radar charts, but people don't picture it very well when I say that. So I might try out the bell curve comparison.

Nic (08:46)

No, you're right, the spider charts and that definitely help, or at least from my perspective, but I think to adjust the language and bring it to someone, something that everyone will understand, a bell seems to work well for me.

Laura Kendall (08:59)

Yeah, yeah,

yeah, good one.

Nic (09:01)

So understanding your neurodivergence, how did that change your views in your early career experiences?

Laura Kendall (09:07)

Yeah, I was thinking about this today and thinking it was a bit like watching some high concept art house film with the directors commentary turned on. Like I kind of got all the things that I didn't get the first time around. Not all the things, but a lot of things. You know, I started to understand why certain environments were really draining for me, why some teams were really energizing and other teams were...

bit depleting and why I could sort of solve lots of different multi-dimensional problems in complex contexts but I had to really wrestle my way through so-called simple admin tasks a lot. And so I also just reevaluated some of the self-talk that I'd been doing when I in my early leadership roles. I often thought back then that you know some of the things that

showed up a lot for me at work were maybe character flaws. So my quite high standards and direct communication and fairly intense work ethic back then, I thought they were character flaws and maybe I just needed to try and be more warm and friendly and likeable. looking back, I can see that that was all just about how my brain is innately wired.

And the hindsight then about understanding I was neurodivergent helped me to put all that burnout into context properly. I had built a career in environments where you're rewarded for being very composed and having really high output and without realizing it in the background I was using heaps of mental bandwidth just to monitor my tone and my facial expression and deal with sensory input and all of that. Just trying to be easy to get along with and...

that was a lot of work and it wasn't sustainable. So that was kind of early career. And then I was looking back when I stepped into leadership roles and how the load I was carrying increased. I didn't really understand why at the time, but because those executive jobs rely on a lot of quite sophisticated relationship management with a whole very broad array of stakeholders usually.

was more work again and I could do it but I had learned to do it like the long way around through sort of intellectual analysis more so than being attuned to other people's emotions and in in sync with them. So yeah wasting a lot of energy and then like you put that together with a standard executive workload you do back-to-back meetings all day and hundreds of emails

Yeah, so kind of the standard executive workload is fine once you get used to it. But for me to try and do that while I was conforming to these leadership norms that were really not designed for people with brains like mine, it was just it was a lot.

Looking back, I thought, well, I just need to try harder at the time. And so just was able to reinterpret all those years with a bit more compassion and stop blaming myself for not thriving in those systems that were not actually built for me to thrive in. Yeah, it was good.

Nic (11:50)

It's interesting, I guess, reflecting on what you were saying, it sounds as though you were basically masking, right, back then, and it was because you had to build a level of mask to ensure that you could be seen as doing your job well, or to the standard that is deemed as the expected value or the expected way of doing things, right?

So what did masking look like for you to that executive context and how did it impact your ability to be a leader?

Laura Kendall (12:18)

Yeah, actually with hindsight, I realized how much it was costing me. And after I, you know, understood that I'm AuDHD , I tried to do a bit less less masking at work, but it didn't go that well. I got all these adverse reactions from colleagues. And so then I was sort of in a quandary of like, okay, well now I feel pressure to consciously mask.

Whereas before I used to unconsciously mask and somehow consciously masking is a whole lot harder. You probably hear that from a lot of late diagnosed neurodivergent folks too. So, you know, was still trying to work every minute to mimic what good leadership is supposed to look like, or I thought it was supposed to look like. And I just felt like I was coming apart at the seams and...

I'd do all the usual masky things. I'd rehearse conversations in my head. I would try to add warmth and humor when really I just wanted to get the message across and get on. Everybody could get on with their day. I would kind of hide my sensory distress in really long boring meetings in hot rooms with fluorescent lights and stuff. And that just costs so much and it wasn't working like I was getting worse at it.

I distress at it all just kept sort of spilling out through the cracks and over time that built up into anxiety and insomnia and all these physical health issues and it also kind of blunted my intuition as a leader. I just got so busy trying to manage myself and being annoyed at how I couldn't manage myself that I didn't have enough bandwidth for proper strategic thinking and really genuinely connecting with people.

which is kind of silly because, well, it's a bit ironic because the more I tried to be authentic, the less I was authentic and authenticity is what people trust. And so the less effective I was and yeah, so I engaged a neurodiversity specialist coach and she was really helpful in just helping me to take a few steps back and identify, I'll call them spaces where I could more safely unmask, but they were really about creating

space in relationships with colleagues that I thought might be safe people. And so I had a whole lot of conversations with them where I was just quite candid and talk to them about the kind of leader that I wanted to be, how I knew I quite often was out of line with that and invited them to, you know, give me gentle feedback and frequent feedback when I was off track. And I don't know, that just really...

It built a lot more trust and a lot of depth in those relationships and it gave me a bit of room to breathe like I had places I know and people I could talk to where I could just be a bit more myself more often at work. So that was helpful. Yeah, but I think I've just been able to let go of masking more and more as time's gone on and that means I can just be a bit more grounded and actually be present in the moment a bit more and listen and.

stuff up all the time and model that's okay, that's part of being human, yeah.

Nic (15:16)

Yeah, I guess there's a few things that I've there that I'd like to sort touch back on. I guess the first one for me was, obviously you've mentioned having that feedback loop or set of feedback loops.

or it could also be translated as a challenge network almost.

Laura Kendall (15:36)

Yeah.

Nic (15:36)

I'm very passionate about learning from Adam Grant and Brené Brown, two of my favorite authors and podcast hosts.

And Adam has, I think it was in Think Again, he introduced the Challenge Network, which is very similar to having those frameworks or those people that will provide you that feedback, but not only the feedback, they'll challenge you in the way that you're thinking or the way that you're

Laura Kendall (15:58)

Yeah.

Nic (15:59)

doing things so that you can learn and build and continue to become resilient, which I think is phenomenal.

the other one I guess that I heard there as well is becoming, your authentic self allows you to give yourself a little bit more additional empathy. and that empathy then helps you to become a stronger leader because you can then become more empathetic with the people that you're leading at the time as well.

Laura Kendall (16:25)

it sounds really obvious, but until I lived it, I didn't quite understand how powerful it was. When you can be kind to yourself, it's so much easier to be kind to other people.

Yeah, so that you spot on with that, I reckon. thinking about those, what you're calling challenge networks, the other thing that some people are surprised about with those is that they don't have to be mentors who are sort of somehow senior to you. They can be your peers or people who report to you or whatever. The point is just to set up the dynamic so that you're actively seeking their feedback and they know that you welcome it.

Yeah, it's just a really rich way to learn as you say, Nic.

Nic (17:01)

No, I completely agree. think that the challenge you will often find is that if you're trying to introduce someone that's say directly reporting to you, they have to be psychologically safe enough to be able to provide you that feedback. And in

Laura Kendall (17:15)

Yeah.

Nic (17:16)

some environments, they may not feel that comfort or that level of safety to be able to provide you that feedback, which takes a lot of effort to develop.

Laura Kendall (17:24)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And so I did do it anyway with some of my direct reports because A, it was useful to me and we had pretty good relationships anyway. Like that was why I chose some of them as safe people. But B, it's useful for them to have that experience and build that muscle memory about speaking up to your leader and that it doesn't always end in disaster and sometimes it's worth the effort.

So I hope it was a good experience for them. They said it was.

Nic (17:50)

Oh, fingers crossed.

Laura Kendall (17:52)

Yeah.

Nic (17:52)

I'd love to jump in and get a little bit more of an understanding of what inspired you to start Neurofuel. Was there a moment that you realized that you wanted to just turn your experience into change or how did it come about?

Laura Kendall (18:04)

Yeah, maybe not one moment, but like a season or a chapter or something like that. Like I said, I went through that period of re-examining my career and not just what I'd done, but how I did it. And I realized that actually a lot of my success came from the fact that I'd unwittingly developed a bit of a special interest in organizations. I didn't even know what neurodivergent special interests were back then, but.

I'd spent years informally researching and always paying attention and curating all my feeds and reflecting on how organizations work as kind of quite complex systems. I also during that time started noticing how in lots of organizations, there's this clear pattern where neurodivergent people are the Canaries in the coal mine. And I think there's a really well-known book by that title now.

In fact, Amazon delivered it to me today. I've got to get it off the doorstep. so that being

Nic (19:01)

It's on my desk.

Laura Kendall (19:04)

canaries in the coal mine meant that exactly what it sounds like, you know, they were identifying risks or gaps in processes or inconsistencies before other people did. But somehow this pattern was that they were the ones burning out and moving on. so organizations were having this sort of

exit, continual trickle of exiting really good talent. So That didn't seem smart and it's part of really what motivated me to launch Neurofuel. I wanted to work with those leaders who are ready to move neurodiversity kind of out of a wellbeing line and into a performance and strategy line. Because what I've learned over the last few months is that

The skills of being a neuro inclusive leader have quite a big overlap with the skills of being an effective, effective transformational leader. And so neurofuel is kind of that way to use my lived experience and my executive background to help organizations design a better future of work. Yeah, but it's quite new. We only launched a few months ago. So it's really interesting seeing what the market response is like. Yeah.

Nic (20:08)

That's wonderful and honestly I hope it continues to grow for you as well. It's something that I think many organizations would value from.

Laura Kendall (20:17)

Yeah, I get a lot of a lot of positive response and a lot of like, that's a great thing to be doing good on you. The trick seems to be to catch people when they're at a good point in their cycle, when they're updating a strategy or when they're about to do budgets for next year or whatever. Yeah, so it's interesting.

Nic (20:36)

So you've seen both sides, it leaders that get it and systems that fall short. What separates the truly inclusive leader from one who's only well-intentioned?

Laura Kendall (20:47)

Hmm. Yeah, I reckon it's getting beyond acting neuro inclusive in your own behaviors and translating that inclusive mindset into an organization's architecture. So I think those leaders that are only well intentioned, they do care a lot, but they focus on interpersonal effort and inclusive leaders. go further. They build systems that make inclusion really normal and easy and

sustainable. So like, you know, the old example back in the 90s leaders would say, Oh, my doors always open. But the inclusive ones, they build really predictable rhythms for check ins, feedback, people's flexibility, so that people don't have to advocate for themselves every time they want one of those they will need one of those things. And I think the really inclusive leaders like they start with the assumption that everybody works a bit differently.

and they treat psychological safety like not as a like a leadership fad or well-being thing, but as a foundation for performance. Like it's a, it's a precondition for performance. And I was thinking about the most inclusive leaders that I've worked with and they're curious and they're humble. And I think they're like that because they're secure in themselves. And so they don't feel like they need to be experts in neurodiversity, but they, they are good at listening.

actually acting on what they hear and doing it consistently over time. sounds like there's a lot in that and it might be really hard to be an inclusive leader, but I don't think so. I think effective leaders, they have their model inclusion, but they also have habits and they design structures that are inclusive to shape an inclusive culture and inclusive decisions every single day that everybody works together.

Yeah, it's probably not not as clear as I wanted to say it, Nic, but you get the idea, right? It's about the difference between how you behave and then how you set things up for everyone who works with you.

Nic (22:37)

Yeah, no, I definitely understand. Being a leader, you and one that is...

Laura Kendall (23:07)

No, not. And yeah, so that's like, there used to be those models of situational leadership and so forth, like with four different styles. And in fact, that's just nowhere near rich enough. And I just reckon that's one of the really fascinating things about the craft of leadership and working with different people. Like it's what makes it fun, I reckon.

Nic (23:25)

No, I agree. Definitely makes it fun for sure. So you've had a manager in the past that really understood you as an individual. What did they do differently and what did it enable for you in the workplace?

Laura Kendall (23:43)

Right out of the gate they always led with clarity and with trust in me and in everybody else that they worked with and that sounds really simple. It is really simple but it's just not that common to have both things happening in a leader in practice. So they were just really explicit about what mattered most and why and they gave me really good air cover to

get results in ways that I judged best for our customers and our stakeholders and our teams. And so instead of micromanaging, they just like choose the moment to ask a really good question like, ah, what do think we should do if XYZ plays out? Or, yeah, I'm sure you've thought about this risk. So tell me what you've thought about. I go, oh yes, of course I thought about it. Yes, yes. Quickly think. But they told me that my thinking was valued.

and that they really loved how much we could get done together by giving respect to each of our different strengths. So they were really big on identifying these massive aspirational opportunities to go after and really connecting kind of dots that were not obviously connected and putting everything together to help us get towards those opportunities. And I was a bit more like quickly thinking through what are all the ins and outs of implementation? How do we need to plan this? What are the risks?

what sequence do we need to do things in? Who are the most important stakeholders to get on board? Blah, blah. And so, yeah, that was really fun. And I think the other thing, another thing that they did was model vulnerability. So they talked about the things that they found personally hard in their roles and how they kind of tackled those challenges of their own. And that made me really want to do the same. Like I wanted to be as good as them and I wanted to really face.

the things that I found hard in my role head on because they were brave. thought, well, I can be brave too. But it also meant I could channel my energy into that kind of more high impact work rather than self monitoring and trying to please them. Like I never felt like the trust that we had was contingent on me pleasing them all the time. So yeah, it was really like one of the best chapters of my career. It was productive. It was fun. And

Yeah, being having the freedom to lead in my own way really fueled my growth as a leader, I think, and having that inspiration of a good leader to kind of try and emulate and often think, really, everyone should work with at least one leader like that in their careers so that they have a model for what good leadership looks like. So I hope that everybody does get to it'd be amazing if everybody worked with good leaders like that all the time. But, you know, we're all humans and nobody's perfect.

Nic (26:14)

I have to say I've been pretty fortunate in my 18 years of working career. I've only ever had one bad manager.

Laura Kendall (26:23)

Yeah, right.

Nic (26:24)

The rest I think I would see more as role models or leaders that I have looked up

Laura Kendall (26:29)

you

Nic (26:29)

to, which has been extremely wonderful and insightful.

Laura Kendall (26:33)

Yeah, yeah, I reckon I've only had two bad ones in 20 something years. so yeah, maybe maybe we can be more optimistic about the world, Nic, in the state of leadership.

Nic (26:42)

Absolutely.

So part of Neurofuel is coaching and coaching leaders. how do you coach leaders to build that kind of understanding and trust with their neurodivergent team members?

Laura Kendall (26:54)

Yeah, I start off maybe by just reframing that neuro inclusive leadership. In part, it's about building skills, but it's also about subtracting assumptions that you might have. And so in coaching, I just help leaders to understand the invisible loads their neurodivergent people are carrying, not because they want to carry those invisible loads, but because they exist in a world that just makes it.

harder for them to just exist and show up at work every day in a whole lot of ways. I do find that a lot of leaders think they already understand neurodiversity, like there's a bit of a vibe of neurodiversity is everywhere these days, everyone's getting diagnosed and so of course I'm across it. And then as we start to explore together, they reevaluate that assumption sometimes. For some leaders, it's like,

the first time they've used the words neurodivergent and talent in the same sentence. And that can create quite an aha moment. Or you know, light bulbs start going on and they're like, Oh, yeah, neurodivergent talent, there's a big upside here. And we could be making a whole lot more of that. And then also, once they understand that invisible load I mentioned earlier that their neurodivergent folks are, I don't know, just

dealing with executive dysfunction and sensory stress and communication differences, then they are less likely to personalize the challenges they have interacting with a person and more likely to start identifying the challenges themselves and you know, working with the person to problem solve the challenges together. They feel more confident to do that because they know they're not attacking the person when they understand the challenges. We also just zero in on like micro habits because

little things can have a huge impact. So just like being really explicit about what good looks like instead of saying, I'll have a go and work it out or checking for clarity instead of agreement. saying, okay, so what do you think that means and what are you going to do about it as opposed to, do you have any questions? And giving feedback really early and kindly and consistently. So they make those little habits part of their leadership muscle memory.

And the results, like I said, it's early days in my business. So I'm drawing from both the work I do with Neurofuel and my own career in organizations. When I say the results are not just happier neurodivergent employees, it's teams that run more like well-oiled operations. They're stronger and the leaders themselves are more kind of self-aware and confident that they can deal with different kinds of personalities and situations and brains. Yeah.

Nic (29:20)

That's awesome. I'd love to see more of that coming about.

Being a certified coach myself, haven't had a chance to play much in that arena, but it's definitely something that I'm conscious of adjusting even my own behaviour when I'm trying to communicate or adjust the way that I'm speaking with someone that may be neurodivergent or that has identified themselves as neurodivergent.

Laura Kendall (29:44)

We have

Nic (29:46)

And sometimes it's about testing as well or doing like, I've got a high

about how this person might better engage if I do something slightly differently and it could be I test it through one conversation and if it doesn't work I reset my hypothesis and start again and try and adjust to do something different again in the in next conversation that I might have with them as well.

Laura Kendall (30:09)

Yeah,

I think you're right. It can be a tricky thing to broach with people, but we don't always have to ask them about do they identify as a particular neurotype. Sometimes, but we can straight out ask them, would it work for you better if I do this or that? And they'll tell us. That can be a shortcut. Yeah.

Nic (30:27)

No, you're right. And I think by law, you're not meant to ask the people if they are or aren't anyway. But you're absolutely right. You can just phrase it in the way that you're wording or you're communicating with the individual to understand their preferences in the way that they want to work.

Laura Kendall (30:45)

is simply.

Nic (30:45)

There's a great way of setting that up. use...

which is, I guess it's becoming more common nowadays, but I think a lot of organizations do quite an extreme version, which is called a passport.

Laura Kendall (30:58)

yeah, passport to me and safe work.

Nic (31:01)

Yeah, I kind of cut it down and run it through my team and we kind of sit down and go, hey,

What do you love to do outside of work? What do you do when you're stressed? What are your favorite hobbies and? How do you like to get your feedback? And we all as a collective kind of sit there and become a little bit vulnerable We go through Each of them so we all understand what it looks like if we're becoming stressed I typically lead the conversation as as to present and show that level of vulnerability as well

But then it shows them as well how I like to get feedback, which means if I like to get feedback from them, they can understand that it's okay to provide that feedback and I then get a better understanding of how they want feedback. Maybe it's not in front of the entire group, maybe it's to the side or having a one-on-one call, just to ensure that they then develop that level of psychological safety as well.

Laura Kendall (31:56)

Yeah, or they might want advance notice that we're going to have a conversation. You might not love it, but it will both be OK. We'll come through it unscathed.

Nic (32:04)

You

Laura Kendall (32:05)

I'm interested just in that. you mind, Nic, if I ask a little bit more about that,

Nic (32:09)

Yeah.

Laura Kendall (32:10)

how do you update that conversation for your teams when new people join?

Nic (32:15)

Yeah, so if someone new joins, we typically take a moment to reset our or recalibrate our answers anyway. What I like to do, very similar to my team charter, would be once every six months, we sit down as a team, we go through things that may have changed in our responses, and we'll sit and have a conversation to go, hey, what's changed?

Do you want to receive feedback in a different way? Do you want to operate in a different way? Do you want to, you know, change your operation hours from, you know, nine to five to ten to six because it's going to be better for you.

Laura Kendall (32:47)

Yeah. Yeah.

Nic (32:50)

So it's all about taking that time to better understand your team and obviously taking the time to reset your expectations at the same time.

Laura Kendall (32:59)

I love it. I love that you treat it as not a static thing and like six months goes by really fast but it's important to do it that often so yeah well done it's amazing.

Nic (33:07)

It goes by so fast and

Laura Kendall (33:10)

You

Nic (33:12)

I still think about last Christmas and we're coming into Christmas this year so it's crazy.

Laura Kendall (33:17)

You're

right, a lot can change for someone in six months. Like, you know, the kid might be having a really hard time, maybe a neurodivergent kid, who knows? And they're not sleeping. So therefore a 10 o'clock start would be better for them. And you wouldn't know that if you did it every 12 months.

Nic (33:30)

Yeah, that's right. It doesn't need to be in that six month block either. You could just do a check in in your frequent one-on-ones. I have fortnightly one-on-ones with each of my team members. And that's just so that I can check in at their time if they want to discuss something or anything like that. It's theirs. If they don't want to do anything, we end the call early and we just go on about our day.

Laura Kendall (33:54)

Yeah.

Yeah. I often was sort of amazed to find out how many leaders schedule one to ones with their direct reports and then don't have them. Yeah. It sort of didn't occur to me that that was a thing until I found it out by learning it about other people. Yeah. So good on you for actually showing up, even if you think you've got nothing to talk about, like being there for the person and their needs. It's really important.

Nic (34:19)

absolutely important. So I'd love to get your opinion or your understanding of some of the common myths or fears from leaders about managing your intervergent talent.

Laura Kendall (34:28)

Yeah, people are a bit careful about saying things that they think might be a bit biased to me, but as we get to know people and they'll eventually realize that, I'm there to be that kind of safe sounding board for them. So I do hear, particularly in small groups, talking to each other about, but neurodivergent, what I hear a lot is like neurodivergent stuff can be like.

hard to manage and is that really fair on other team members when you're spending so much time on a neurodivergent worker? But I think like we've been talking about through this whole chat when leaders work out how to communicate clearly and in ways that work for different brains when they learn like you said what are the distinctive strengths of each individual person and how to draw those out and integrate weave them into the whole team.

and to like shape environments that feel safe and comfortable for everyone, then those neurodivergent employees that might've otherwise been hard to manage, quote unquote, can be some of their best performers. So yeah, that's one. think another thing that I hear a lot is that neurodivergent people, not just neurodivergent workers, are gonna expect special treatment. And I'm putting that in scare quotes as well.

I think that one boils down to a fear that adjustments or accommodations are gonna be expensive or difficult or inconvenient. But the reality is the biggest gains, as we've said, come from those really small shifts, know, structuring meetings better, written follow-ups to verbal conversations and, you know, really clear priorities. The other one that I hear quite a bit, or another one, is...

leaders worrying that they're going to somehow say the wrong thing, muck up, offend somebody, open themselves up to complaints or discrimination claims or things like that. I just think that there's so much more to be gained from trying to be a neuro-inclusive leader and being a bit awkward about it than there is to be sort of left on the table and lost if you don't try it all.

And so, I just think if you're curious and you're humble, people value that a whole lot more than you using the perfect language. People use imperfect language with me all the time. And I don't get offended because I know that they're trying to learn and they're trying to do better and be better. And that's the most important thing. And I think that's what people remember.

Yeah, so there's some. What about you? What are some that you hear around the traps?

Nic (36:45)

That's a good question. I think you covered a lot of them. A lot of managers struggle to kind of understand that it's not difficult to provide those accommodations. Like it could be as simple as...

Like I said before, adjusting someone's time to be able to work to their chronotype or to their family schedule, for example. and that doesn't necessarily need to be just for a neurodivergent individual. That's for everybody.

Similarly, you know, it could be I, for example, struggle with reading mammoth amounts of text. So if I could have, you know, mine summarized for me via audio, awesome. If I can throw it into something like... what am I using at the moment?

Laura Kendall (37:31)

Notebook LM or something.

Nic (37:32)

Notebook LM, that's the one.

I love Notebook LM and the fact that I can turn any reading into a conversational podcast.

I learned so much more through that medium

Laura Kendall (37:44)

Yeah. Yeah.

Nic (37:46)

or even their new video or their video presentations. They just simplify everything down so it's understandable instead of being in an academic setting or in a corporate setting as well.

Laura Kendall (38:00)

Yeah,

and that's the sort of thing that dyslexic folks tell me can be really helpful for them as well. Like wading through slabs of text is not ever something that they're going to do. And so it's silly as an organisation to assume that they're going to.

Nic (38:14)

Yeah, no, that's right. I mean, even, you you've touched on dyslexia, you know, simplifying what you put in a slide deck. And then if you need to have an accompanying PDF with additional information, fine. But just don't put walls of text on a slide deck because people will just tune out.

Laura Kendall (38:35)

That's right. I guess I'm a recovering engineer in some ways. And so I've worked with engineers and technical people for years and years. And the wall of text on a slide just always used to erase my hackles. I just figure if you need to use like seven point font on a slide, that shouldn't be on a slide. It's not a visual aid.

Nic (38:55)

It's definitely not a visual aid. So you've also then started to help teams move beyond accommodations like we've been discussing and more towards that universal design system. How does that flex for everybody?

Laura Kendall (39:08)

So I think your audience is probably across what universal design is and it's really flipping from the traditional approach of designing for normal and adding exceptions later to asking how can we design this process or this environment or this workplace to start from the start to really work well with the widest possible range of human diversity.

And I don't profess to be a like a universal design expert or anything. There are these seven core principles of universal design. And I'm not a designer. If you need that level of expertise, there are heaps of experts. But I really just work with leaders to think through the obvious.

things about how to map out or how to listen to their people first of all to understand what are the kind of points of friction in their employee experience? What do people struggle to access or where do they struggle to focus or contribute and then redesign those touch points to be more flexible? So it could, like we've been saying, it could mean shorter meetings, it could mean visual summaries, it could mean or podcast summaries, or it could mean

You you create a low sensory zone in a meeting room that hardly anybody uses or something in the office. I do. So yeah, it's all about really flexing to design for variation as a standard, not bolted on later. The sort of resistance that I hear around that sometimes or sense around that is leaders and organizations thinking, this is just a fad. Do we really have to do it? Like, it's just a nice to have. And we've got so much on already.

which I understand totally and I just gently talk to them about the costs of not getting on board with universal design and it doesn't take much sort of mental arithmetic to understand how that's not going to work in future and also like much logic to understand how it's not working now. So what I mean by those two things if I unpack the second one first, it's not working for neurodivergent folks now because

I mean an ad hoc approach to accommodations is not working because that relies on an assumption that neurodivergent folks understand exactly what they need for support and also that they're going to be comfortable asking for that. And in a lot of cases, those assumptions just don't hold. So accommodations processes that are ad hoc just really aren't that effective anyway. And then if you just do the, touched before on

mental arithmetic around how it's not really in the interest of organizations to have an ad hoc approach either. Like kind of is manageable now when we've got maybe 15 or 20 % of the workforce that's neurodivergent and only a tiny proportion of them disclose or, you know, a smallish proportion disclose and a smaller proportion again, requests accommodations and adjustments. It's kind of manageable, but there's this kind, there's this demographic sort of

pathway starting to emerge whereby we can see like you talked before about the lost generation. So all of the unidentified older folks in workforces mean that we've probably underestimated that 15 to 20 % of people being neurodivergent is probably underestimating the true number of neurodivergent folks already. And then we look at there are some reports now that show

generation z and Gen alpha, something like 53 % of them are identifying as neurodivergent. So if you map that into the future, by 2050, they're projecting that maybe 40 % of the workforce will identify as what we today call neurodivergent. So then if you think about like how an ad hoc accommodation process works, and all the identifying it, selecting it, getting it approved through four different decision makers and experts.

implementing it so that it's implemented as documented and agreed and reviewed regularly. And then if you think about each person who has accommodations might need two or four or six accommodations. How they can work when 40 % of the workforce are confident and comfortable needing accommodations that your workplace hasn't designed in from the get go like it's just it's not going to be manageable. So it's

It's just a smart thing to do to start moving towards universal design now.

Nic (43:15)

So what then is a practical starting point for a leader that wants their workplace to become more Neuro-inclusive and just isn't sure where to begin?

Laura Kendall (43:25)

Yeah, I reckon start with listening and learning like I said a couple of times. Some really powerful steps that on the learning front is get yourself educated. Do some training on neurodiversity and neuro inclusive leadership. It's readily available. It's not expensive. Then move from there to asking your people what would help them do their best work. And just like you Nic, you don't ask it once you ask it.

regularly and see what changes. And I think you learn more from that about how to be a neuro inclusive leader than you would by like diving into a massive roadmap and strategy that you've got to like check your performance against and get everybody on board with and run a whole change program. Starting in your own backyard is really important so that you're then confident to show others the way. And then you can make some visible changes to your own.

leadership behaviors to show that you're genuinely going to walk the talk that builds trust with people. And we've talked about lots of different ways to do that already. But from there, you start to be able to have a really big impact by looking at the systems and frameworks that you in your role influence. So if you're like a governance manager, that might be your organization's risk management framework. If you're a talent specialist, it might be the recruitment and onboarding process.

or if you lead a team like you've been saying, it could be something like how you manage the dynamics of hybrid meetings so that people who are online in your hybrid meeting don't get kind of pushed to the edges of the discussion. They're actually included. so I think, yeah, thinking about what you can influence and then bringing your understanding of neuro-inclusive leadership into those frameworks, you don't have to go for perfection overnight.

It's about trying to make progress that is sustainable and that people around you can build on because it's like really well embedded. Yeah. Sounds hard but it's not.

Nic (45:12)

no

you're right it's definitely well said though it does sound hard it's it's honestly not

you know, the examples I've already provided are simple things that you can do just to become more inclusive. know, the asking someone how

Laura Kendall (45:25)

Hmm. Yeah.

Nic (45:27)

they would like to work or as you just mentioned, making hybrid meetings more interactive for everybody, not just for those that are in the room. And that could be through the tools that you're using, be it Teams, be it Miro, be it, there are so many other tools that you can use to ensure that everyone's being

included.

Laura Kendall (45:46)

Yep.

Nic (45:47)

But it may also be that they might not have to actually be in the workshop. You could say, hey, we're going to give you the option to do it asynchronously. on, you know, go and go

Laura Kendall (45:55)

Yep, here's the email board.

Nic (45:57)

through the, yeah, use the mirror board. There's a series of talk tracks on the mirror board that are going to explain each activity. Do it in your time. You don't need to be there to do the activity.

Laura Kendall (46:07)

Yeah. And

sometimes that helps people really with the quality of their contributions because they can think deeply. Yeah. So some of those like dealing with frameworks might sound hard, but if you're a governance manager, then a new own the risk management framework, you're reviewing it on a cycle that's kind of mandatory for reviewing anyway, and you've got to do the work. So if you've done the training on neuro inclusive leadership, you can naturally just start to incorporate that in a review that you had to do anyway. So it's.

It's not as hard as it might sound.

Nic (46:38)

No, I agree. So I'm curious then, you've obviously worked with quite a number of leaders through Neurofuel now. What are some of the most inspiring changes that you've seen from someone that has gone through that transformation and now really truly understands what neuroinclusion is?

Laura Kendall (46:57)

Yeah.

So from talking about, you know, organisational frameworks and really embedding sustainable change, I'm going to switch gears a little bit and just reflect that sometimes some of the most inspiring stories here do happen on a small scale. I'm thinking about a senior leader who, when we first met, they were very supportive of neurodiversity in theory, but in practice, were

cautious and they were having a bit of a challenging time with their executive assistant. They were kind of misunderstanding each other a lot and there were all these last minute panics and things just felt a lot harder than they should be and you know I really credit this leader because it can be very easy to just say I need a new EA I can't work with this one and they didn't do that.

but they were worried about like handling it wrong and sort of ending up in trouble somehow. And so the issue wasn't with their intent. They had good intent. was just that uncertainty. we started experimenting, like you said, little experiments, practical changes. And so they gave their EA clearer briefs on tasks. They actually implemented more flexible working start and finish times.

And they introduced as well as just like messaging the EA all throughout the day and like maybe chatting for 10 minutes here or there when they needed to sort something out. They introduced a regular weekly half hour check-in, which was designated time for the EA to then go deep on clarifying generally what are the expectations and identifying the patterns of how the leader like to work with them.

And also, as you say, just that kind of personal, how are things with you? And is there anything I can do to make your life at work easier? And so that was really good. The transformation within a month was really noticeable. The leader got really excited and started telling everybody who'd listen about their EA's amazing skills and how they'd...

had just with some simple shifts taken the relation, the working relationship from really fraught to really fantastic. And they started like, not just telling anybody who would listen, but like publishing neurodiversity affirming content online. And they became a sponsor of a DEI committee in their workplace. And the EA who had been on the edge of burnout really started to thrive and really feel confident in their role.

And the leader did say to me, like when it was just the two of us, if I'm really honest, I've been thinking about this and I probably subconsciously thought that inclusion was more about being nice to people when they're annoying you at work. And actually, they said, it's about me owning my effectiveness as a leader and being active and intentional about that. So yeah, I just thought it was really cool how they got so excited and

shared their success and shared how it wasn't very hard to do, all just off the working relationship with their EA. They hadn't done this huge transformation of an organization or anything, but because that leader was so well-networked and so had such a good reputation, them banging on about the value of neurodiverse talent all of a sudden.

created this ripple effect that affected their whole organization, which is tens of thousands of people and their whole industry sector. So yeah, I just thought, that was a really cool, that just made me inspired, made me want to keep doing the work. was a really cool, cool story about how little changes can have a big impact. And you just don't know how far those ripples are going to travel out and influence other people.

Nic (50:27)

It's perfect example of how such a small change can make such a large difference not only to the individual but to the entire organisation. I guess it's also the power of an executive sponsor that is truly passionate about neurodiversity as well and the effect that that can have on an organisation.

Laura Kendall (50:48)

Absolutely. Yeah, I've seen that again and again. Yeah.

Nic (50:52)

So turning over the mic to you then, do you have a question for me?

Laura Kendall (50:55)

I do.

Thanks for allowing the opportunity to ask one. I've heard you say on a previous episode of the inclusive shift about how part of your motivation for doing the podcast is to really help galvanize that shift to a world of work that's welcoming and values your neurodivergent kids when they reach working age. And I was just curious to hear your thoughts about which parts of that shift are you really optimistic that they're going to happen and going to

be great and which parts are sort of harder to feel optimistic about at this point in time.

Nic (51:27)

Whoa, that's a challenging question. That's a good question. Let me think. I think the things that I'm starting to see is obviously there's becoming more of an awareness around neurodiversity in general and enabling organizations or individuals to be able to work.

in the best way that they can depending on the sector you're in.

Laura Kendall (51:54)

Mm.

Nic (51:54)

So we're all very well aware that consulting or banking industries now are pushing more and more of their staff back into the office which is reducing the number of accommodations that a neurodivergent individual could potentially have which may end up having a detrimental impact.

And saying that, you've now got the the Melbourne or Victorian government saying, hey, we're going to enforce two days a week work from home, which

Laura Kendall (52:23)

No.

Nic (52:24)

I think is phenomenal. Now, not every industry agrees.

Laura Kendall (52:28)

Well,

and there's also a whole lot of speculation about whether they can actually do it constitutionally, We'll see. It'll be really interesting to see.

Nic (52:35)

we will see, I am interested to see how that one's going to pan out. I think the difficulty that I'm seeing at the moment is a level of consistency, right? So you have some phenomenal benchmark small organizations like the Digital Picnic here in Melbourne, who have kind of like set the baseline of what true neuroinclusion should be. And then you've got organizations

Organizations like coles and I think it's EY as well, that are really doing a lot of work in neuroinclusion, supporting inclusive work practices, both for their frontline staff in centers, as well as for their corporate staff. And EY with all of the research that they're presenting and publishing around neuroinclusion and how it should be developed and used in a corporate setting.

I'm not entirely sure how it's going to broach things like being a chef or anything or those types of industries because they

Laura Kendall (53:33)

you

Nic (53:34)

seem to be quite unique and what and quite harsh So I'd be intrigued one of my sons wants to be a chef

And I want that for him as much as he wants it But at the same time it makes me really nervous because I know private chefs or personal chefs and the level of stress and things that they go under as well,

Laura Kendall (53:54)

Yeah.

Nic (53:56)

Time will tell that's for sure

Laura Kendall (53:58)

Yeah, maybe they'll change their mind. don't want to be a techpreneur

or something instead.

Nic (54:04)

I think if he had the opportunity he'd be a YouTuber but I said that's not a real job you need to find something else to do.

Laura Kendall (54:09)

You

Nic (54:13)

So

Laura Kendall (54:13)

It's time, it's still time.

Nic (54:15)

that's right. So I guess the last thing I'd love to do would be to say hey what's one message you'd love to leave with our listeners today?

Laura Kendall (54:25)

I think the headline message would be this shift towards a neuro inclusive world of work doesn't have to take decades and nor should it. It's not in anybody's interest for it to take decades. It's actually not that hard once you understand the fundamentals and everybody's already started because pretty much every organization already has a neuro diverse workforce, including neurodivergent people. So the question isn't really about like, you

lead a neurodiverse organization. It's when are you going to start doing it really intentionally and how well are going to do it? And yeah, I think just if you're feeling daunted by it, starting with curiosity is super important. And then moving from there into building those systems that make people feel safe and able to be their real selves at work.

And I think, yeah, when you do that, you start to see for yourself that neuro inclusion doesn't just benefit individuals, it makes the whole business kind of stronger, faster and more resilient. So my message would be let's do this people, let's go.

Nic (55:25)

Awesome. Well, Laura, thank you very much for jumping onto the Inclusive Shift. I do truly appreciate your time.

Laura Kendall (55:31)

it Nic. It's been really good to talk to you. I can't wait to hear who else you get on the podcast and what other kind of conversations you have and keep learning along with you. Thanks for having me.

Nic (55:41)

Thank you again.