The Power of Coaching for Neurodivergent Individuals

Diagnosed late in life with autism and ADHD, a pair commonly known as AuDHD, Ani was once an executive director of a digital agency and now turned a neurodivergent coach and leadership coach running Ani Moller Coaching, where they help people to reduce their stress and free their creativity at work. I just want to pause today before we start.

Some of the conversations that we'll be having today discuss suicide. If you have suicidal thoughts, if you need support in that space, please seek help in all of the spaces that you need to Ani, welcome to the Inclusive Shift.

Ani (00:52)

Thanks for having me.

Nic (00:52)

Ani, you wear a lot of different hats, be it a coach, a leader, an advocate, but to start simple, how do you introduce yourself?

Ani (00:59)

Yeah. uh

Most people I would just say I'm an ADHD coach. They might understand what that is. Back when I worked in digital I'd just say yeah I work in advertising because it's a little bit complicated. But specifically I'm an ADHD leadership and life coach because my coaching focus is on work because when you're late diagnosed it's very difficult to separate work and life and home life. So yeah I work with neurodivergent professionals who want their life at work to be a little bit more sustainable and

that means that we do look at things in their personal life.

Nic (01:33)

Awesome, thank you for sharing. Being diagnosed as AuDHD at the age of 41, what was that journey like for you?

Ani (01:39)

Wow. I mean, the only word I can really use to describe that is it's existential. I always knew that...

I was different to other people. I mean, my first memory being in kindergarten, just looking around at all of the kids and thinking, there's something different about me to these other kids. I would have been like four years old. I always knew that I struggled with things that other people didn't, but at the same time, I built a successful career in technology, leading large programs of works. But yeah, I mean, look.

It is kind of like the scene in The Matrix where Morpheus gives Neo the blue pill or the red pill and the red pill will figure out or help you, show you what is yourself, what is the world as it truly is and some of it's a little bit brutal when you actually come to terms with it and you know and once you know you know you can't really unknown. I found that my sense of self was very shattered after my diagnosis.

you build a life up based on what you think it is and all of the time you suddenly realize that many of that was not true. And yeah, it was a pretty dark time for a time. The way that my diagnosis came about...

I got the autism diagnosis first and there was actually no mention of ADHD at all. But when I got my autism diagnosis, I got a report. It was very, very long. And that was it. I was told to go look for supports. And if you are an autistic late diagnosed person, you probably know that there's often it's quite difficult to access supports out there. And knowing that I needed support needed

help had this whole new lexicon of words to try and figure out and try and understand what was going on.

It did get to the point of feeling pretty suicidal. Thankfully, I'm still here and I'm grateful that I got through that, but it was really, really tough because it happened at the same time as sitting on executive leadership team in the middle of COVID lockdowns and leading pretty stressful projects in a project delivery team.

It took a really long time to process. There's so many things to learn and at the same time I was teaching everybody around me about what it meant at the same time as learning myself. That was pretty overwhelming because I was not only trying to do that at the same time, I was trying to be a successful executive leader. I was trying to deliver projects successfully. I was trying to nurture the careers of my team.

But when I started Googling, you know, what is autism? A lot of the content online was for parents of autistic kids, unemployed autistics. There There was a lot for maybe higher support level autistics. And a lot of the content didn't really resonate for me. And there was also a lot of content out there for people who experienced ADHD without the autism. And they're quite different when you have one or other or both.

One of my closest friends when I got my diagnosis, they said, I know you're going to do something with this. And so I challenged my AuDHD knowledge hungry brain into something that I could try and learn how to make my own life better, but also to better serve the people that I was already working with.

Nic (04:54)

That's so wonderful just to hear and thank you for sharing. And there are certain companies that are out there for people, Be it Amaze who have been very wonderful for parents of neurodivergent children. And they are advocates for...

neurodivergent people as well, along with Aspect who can support neurodivergent individuals, but there's still a lot of, a very large gap as you called out, that needs to be filled to support those that are working and are being diagnosed at such a late age as well.

Ani (05:25)

and especially if you're a woman because a lot of just a lot of the content out there it's very yeah there's not a lot of content out there for women

Nic (05:33)

No, there's not. There's a lot on obviously men and boys because that's typically

Ani (05:38)

Mm-hmm.

Nic (05:38)

who was being diagnosed originally, but it's a very biased focus originally, I guess, as well.

Ani (05:43)

Yeah, and I didn't get the train autism. That was my dad.

Nic (05:48)

Oh, very good. All right. Did it shift, be it how you understood yourself and the expectations for you both personally and professionally when you were diagnosed?

Ani (06:00)

Hmm, hugely. I'm so grateful that I got my diagnosis. I had seriously negative self-talk before my diagnosis. I had so much anxiety, so much shame, so much guilt, and I now know that a lot of that was internalised ableism. So that's a term that some people probably haven't heard of. So ableism is basically prejudice towards disabled people.

and internalised ableism is where we hear these ideas and things that people say or maybe they don't say out in society and then we internalise those feelings for ourselves. We have a lot of...

tend to have a lot of self-loathing, a lot of criticism, and also we tend to have a lot of criticism for people who struggle with neurodivergent traits, like being socially awkward, maybe being forgetful, or just not working in neurotypical ways. And I actually had no idea that I was even doing that. I had to spend quite a bit of time unpacking that internalized ableism. Same with a lot of my clients. They have a lot of

I guess self-flagellation. They try to force themselves to do things better or faster, but it never really works. And yeah, I tried to work really long hours to make up for my executive dysfunction. I didn't even know that's what was going on. So I just really pushed through and people would comment about that. They'd comment about my success. I always felt like a failure though. And I think subconsciously,

And, you know, very, I was not aware. I would know that I had this executive dysfunction. I didn't have words for that. I knew that I had differences. I didn't know what they were.

I just thought that I was bad at life and work. So now instead of thinking of myself as broken and deficient, I see my strengths and I know where I need support. I know where I need to be self compassionate towards myself and I really just speak to myself in a much nicer way. And I think importantly, I don't chase validation anymore from people who leave me feeling misunderstood or confused. That was a pretty big challenge for me as an undiagnosed

autistic person.

Nic (08:05)

I mean you've started to touch on how being diagnosed has changed your life but could you go into that in a little bit more detail for me?

Ani (08:13)

Mm. Well...

I think on a professional level, I had a very big skills regression after my diagnosis, which is something that's very common in late diagnosis, especially autistic people. I would present monthly at these big town halls. We had offices all across Australia, we'd have TV cameras that were streaming, and I did that every month. But after my diagnosis, all of a sudden, I couldn't even speak in small meetings with my peers. That was really scary.

scary.

That was confusing. I started having a lot more meltdowns. Suddenly realized that the sensory overwhelm was overwhelming. And really I'd spent my entire life dissociating from all of these overwhelming physical sensations, these emotions. And then all of a sudden you get this awareness that these are things.

rather than things that you've been able to ignore for so long and then you feel everything. was, yeah, my body and my mind couldn't cope and I had my fourth major burnout after my diagnosis.

On a personal level, I would say my social circles completely changed. I got diagnosed five years ago. It was very different five years ago talking about neurodiversity, especially autism, than it is now. And in my, I guess, peer circles, whether it's in the industry, on LinkedIn, on social media, just generally at work and people that I met, I was the first person to say out loud

I'm autistic and to be in a senior role and so it was quite a lot.

Nic (09:44)

Hmm.

Ani (09:45)

So it was a pretty big upheaval. I've been building my life up since then but I actually had a stroke in 2023 which was...

Very strange, very a freak accident. And I was off work for quite a long time. I had very, very severe fatigue as part of my stroke and I actually lost my eyesight temporarily for about nine months, couldn't see properly. So I had to stop working in the high pressure consulting roles and I was coincidentally just doing an ADHD coaching certificate for fun. And so I pivoted to set my business up to work solely with neurodivergent professionals.

I think it wasn't until I became so physically ill that I had no choice to slow down, isolate and then slowly rebuild things up and be a little bit more intentional and sustainable about that.

Nic (10:33)

It's so good to hear. Shifting your entire career is difficult most of the time, but obviously you've taken a diagnosis and obviously your stroke and taken that opportunity and made it something that is going to make a difference being coaching of neurodivergent specifically, obviously ADHD coaching, but in general neurodivergent coaching.

Before becoming a neurodivergent coach then, you were leading such large teams at digital agencies, both diagnosed, self-identified, neurotypical. What has that experience taught you?

Ani (11:07)

Well, to get the most out of people, you really need to focus on their strengths. That's something that's very common working in agency life and consulting life. But also that industry is full of neurodivergent people. I had worked for so many different companies and roles throughout my career and

When I first went into an agency, I felt like, I've found my people. And I didn't know what that was, but now I know that it's because there were other neurodivergent people there. They're so creative, there's so much laughter, there's a lot less pressure to mask, a big focus on experimentation.

which is very helpful when you don't know how to approach specific situations, especially if you are autistic. Yeah, there's a lot of ideation, experimentation, and insights, and that's the mindset that I bring to my coaching practice and how I work with my clients. But I managed a lot of different people. Every person that I ever worked with was very, very intelligent.

Some of them struggled more than others, especially if they were going through a major life challenge. Maybe there's a death in the family, they're going through a divorce or a major health crisis and suddenly their executive functions would drop off a cliff and it wouldn't be until that stress was resolved that their level of, I guess, capability and functioning would come back.

Sometimes the role was just wrong for them and sometimes they would just need more support. Maybe there were some specific skills that they needed to grow.

I had a few staff members where I would see them not performing well under other managers and I just had this feeling that I could do, I could be a good leader for them.

I don't know why, but there were just some people where I felt that. But also there were some people where I was not the right leader for them. Our leadership styles didn't gel. And so I became really fascinated on what was going on in those moments and how do you get the best out of people and what is required to lead a team really successfully and how do you lead a person successfully. So I did a lot of agile coaching and building

psychological safety is a very big part of the agile industry and I was just really fascinated on why some people struggled to work well together and some people were a little bit better at working well.

So I run this mental fitness program. It uses positive intelligence and part of this is about learning about our quote unquote saboteurs, which are our strengths taken too far. And when they're taken too far, they can cause anxiety and stress in ourselves and also in others. When I started the program, I had a very strong hyper-rational, which is where I have a strong focus on logic

over emotion and that is great for project management but perhaps not always so good when you are leading people who are going through challenging situations either on a project or in their personal life. There are also people in my team who would have a very strong pleaser saboteur so they were very strong people pleasers and where I was quite I could be

quite logical and they might just say yes to things and we would have this friction that was going on but we didn't have a language for what was that friction, how do we understand what that friction is and how do we actually address it. But what I saw is that people are always trying to do their best and people thrive in roles where they are best suited to their strengths.

and with other people that complement those strengths. So you don't just have a team of same, but you've got people who have different spiky profiles, because we often have spiky profiles. And also where we can feel more safe to be our authentic selves at work. And I think that's one thing that is really great in creative organizations is that where people do feel safe to be themselves, their strengths will really come out.

Nic (15:03)

I definitely have a logic over empathy profile. Most of the time I much prefer my logic over my empathy but there's definitely times where you have to switch that tact or switch that mode and lean in with empathy, lean in and support your team to ensure that they are able to deliver what they need to deliver at the same time. So it

Ani (15:22)

Yeah.

Nic (15:23)

can be a challenge but it's well worth doing.

Ani (15:26)

And also if you don't know what empathy is, so some of us struggle with

different parts of empathy. have to, many times I have to use my cognitive empathy. So I'll have to switch on a part of my brain to go, okay, this is the empathy muscle that I'm going to use today and this is how I'm going to use it. And that is very, very cognitive. And that's something that I have had to learn and a lot of my clients have to learn as well. And when we are not taught these things, because these are the soft skills that people talk about, but we're often not taught, we're taught very practical, technical skills.

It can be, yeah, it's interesting to learn that these are things that we might need to learn specific skills on.

Nic (16:07)

Yeah, absolutely. So be keen then to, given that you've spent quite a bit of time now as a neurodivergent coach, what strengths do you see in neurodivergent people, both maybe in a collaborative space like a digital agency, along with in your coaching life?

Ani (16:24)

Well, mean Every neurodivergent person is so specific and different and everyone has different strengths but the ones that I see very commonly tends to be creativity, out-of-the-box thinking, tend to have a very specific sense of humor, have a big focus on having having a laugh at work.

It can be very strong attention to detail, prolonged focus, expert knowledge. Often they don't realise that they have expert knowledge, but very strong technical skills. It could be high morality and judgment, strong work ethic, strong loyalty, and yeah, unafraid to challenge the status quo. There's just so many strengths and...

I think one thing that is very interesting is that there's a saying that autistic people are the canary in the mine. So if you want to know what's wrong with your company culture and how to fix it, hire an autistic because they will know and they will tell you.

Nic (17:19)

⁓ I would probably put it slightly differently in saying that most autistics will just tell you how it is because that's generally what I personally do. I'm not formally diagnosed. I am self-identified but I do have two beautiful little boys that are AuDHD and I get told how it is all the time.

Ani (17:40)

Yeah.

Nic (17:43)

So what tends to get in the way then of a neurodivergent individual in a workplace?

Ani (17:49)

Well, something I see a lot is when neurodivergent people, everyone has their own little flavor of executive dysfunction and their own cognitive style. And sometimes they might be in roles where those executive functions are being specifically challenged. So if they are

Let's say they're ADHD, they're great with flexibility, reacting well under pressure. They might be able to split their focus or jump around from task to task. But if they're put into a role where they have to just do one thing for an extended period of time, that's probably gonna come with some challenges. I think I do see, you know.

Some people struggle with concentrating. It depends. Like if you're in a role where the thing that you are doing is something that you're very passionate about, you're probably not gonna struggle with concentration. But if you have a lot of distractions, you may. Often we may see time a little bit differently where...

Suddenly you start typing and then you think five minutes have passed and you realize it's been 90 minutes That can be challenging if we don't have the right strategies, but I think when it comes to Specifically more people who are all AuDHD or autistic is we may often have a lot of misunderstandings because we do have a different communication style I Have quite a flat effect. I'm not masking my voice that much today And it doesn't go up

like it used to. I'm from New Zealand so generally it used to be everything's a question even when it's not a question but it does mean that we can have these interpersonal challenges that can be really confusing and that can lead to a lot of stress, some physical illnesses and also a lot of burnout.

I think the main thing I see with lot of my clients is that they just have so much guilt and shame about being distracted or forgetting things and it makes their executive function worse.

their anxiety and worry, it's like a nervous system activator and it primes you to experience it more. And one thing that's helped me to perform at my best and definitely something that I see in my clients is around unlearning that shame and radically accepting all aspects of their neurodivergence.

Nic (20:04)

so beautifully said. So I'd love to jump into your coaching work life for now. So what really drew you to coaching and more specifically coaching your neurodivergent people?

Ani (20:17)

Well, I started coaching as a project manager and the more I stayed in that position, the more I realized that to be successful as a project manager, it's way less about

defining the perfect scope, coming up with a perfect project plan or detailing the perfect budget. And it's way more about people and their interactions at work. I was a people watcher as a teenager. Now I know why. But when I discovered Agile Coaching, I...

developed a new little AuDHD special interest in figuring out how to get the best out of teams. And then I focused more on individuals when I became a leader, so when I had reporting lines. And I just loved being able to sit down with someone who was really stressed out and having a bit of a panic.

to be able to get them to talk through what was going on, help them figure out their problem, and then just see that, you know, the sigh of relief that they would have when they figured out this is what I need to do. This is how I can overcome that problem. And I really love helping people to get the best out of themselves and their work.

I mean coaching is a little bit less fatiguing for me than the business transformation that I was doing before my stroke. My executive functions, I look, I lost quite a bit of my brain. When I tell people that I lost an eighth of my brain, it's, people have seen my MRI and they're like.

are you even here? I don't know. The brain is pretty magical but it didn't impact my ability to speak. It impacted some of my other abilities like I'm not so good at numbers anymore but I was very grateful that that was something that I was able to do just at the end of my ADHD coaching is when I had my stroke. I think

I find talking to neurodivergent people a lot less stressful. I don't feel as anxious and when I don't feel anxious I'm able to bring my best self to my work. So I think when I am in a room

This is something that I learned when I was young. So I was always quite good at making friends and networking. Maybe not holding onto them, that's a different story. But I would just go and look for the most anxious person in the room and try to make them feel a little bit more comfortable. That was something that I started doing as a kid. And that really helped me as a team coach. So if you've got a, you you've got a big meeting with 12 people and you can see that people aren't.

quite talking about what's going on. There's something that's below the surface. That really helped me to be able to identify who did I think was the most anxious person in the room because normally there was, that was a signal that there was something that was going on.

I think the fact that I have complex PTSD, I got that diagnosis at the same time as my autism diagnosis. I'm quite a sensitive person, I can be quite hypervigilant, although thank goodness EMDR therapy has helped me a lot. But I think there's something in that sensitivity that's really helped me to work with teams and individuals because sometimes I think people just push past that anxiety or try to push past it.

Nic (23:20)

So using your personal experience then, how does that experience shape the way that you work with your clients today?

Ani (23:26)

Well, my diagnosis journey was very challenging and it took a long time to find the right supports and right strategies. And unfortunately I did leave some sessions with some therapists being more traumatized than helped.

So I was often reaching out for help and I felt like I was not getting it. So I have a business principle of no dead ends. So with my clients if I'm not the right coach I will point them in the direction of finding another coach, possibly giving them some recommendations or if potentially the help, the support that they're looking for is maybe it's not coaching that they're looking for I will help point them to the right services.

the benefit of being an ADHD coach in Australia and and being a member of the Australasian ADHD Professionals Association is that we're in a WhatsApp group with every coach in Australia and I can email every single aadpa member for advice which is great because there's some very knowledgeable ADHD psychiatrists and GPs in that group.

When my clients come to me they're often really really burned out and they're often trying to navigate some big life decisions and when you're doing that when you're fatigued that's very challenging so I try to reduce cognitive effort wherever possible that includes how I structure my onboarding process so I don't send them an email with eight PDFs to read and you know three tests or assessments to fill out because that can be very very overwhelming and

They might shut down. So I have another business principle, which is everything at the right time. So right content, right time. And it also changes how I structure my emails. So I try to make them very scannable, very ADHD friendly, I'll bold text things. And that's really how I coach them as well. when people show up,

especially in those earlier sessions, they can often shut down, especially if they're overwhelmed, they might have some big emotions that show up, they may have been reprimanded in the past for having big emotions, and so they may have a lot of guilt. And so part of my process is normalizing our struggles and to support them in achieving their goals in a way that doesn't make their nervous system activated.

Nic (25:35)

definitely see that being important right so making sure that they're feeling psychologically safe before you can really delve dive deeper into what's going on underneath the surface is critically important in any conversation

Ani (25:49)

Yeah.

Nic (25:50)

but especially when you're trying to coach somebody at the same time

Ani (25:53)

Mm-hmm, for sure.

Nic (25:56)

So then jumping into a coaching session, what do you notice most often about people that you are coaching, be it patterns, challenges, or even hidden strengths?

Ani (26:05)

One of the things that I see in virtually all of my clients is that they have this really strong desire to just be more productive and unfortunately that is a pattern that tends to keep neurodivergence trapped in burnout and feeling pretty terrible about themselves.

I see six common leadership patterns. Possibly they're very, very creative. They have a lot of ideas, but they can't always finish them. They may really have a strong desire to perfect and control. It could be that they were working at an unsustainable pace. It could be that they don't know how to get started. Or it could be that they may have a more logical way of dealing with

emotions but often I do see a lot of women or AFAB non-binary people who are going through perimenopause and there's a big impact of how female hormones impact ADHD and autism.

I see a lot of people who have undiagnosed other conditions. So a lot of my clients might have an undiagnosed learning disability. Often they might be dyslexic and possibly they may be in a role where they have to write a lot of things and that could be quite challenging or maybe they have to do a lot of admin and their ADHD and they find that boring. Or they're autistic and they're in a role where they have to talk to a lot of people.

Now it's not that those roles can never work but they're probably going to need more accommodations or they're going to need specific accommodations or possibly they might need to do things differently in a way that's more authentic for them. Unfortunately I do see that a lot of organisations don't know how to support neurodiversity or difference and sometimes there may be an outright lack of support from leadership or HR. But

My clients have hidden strengths. They're all naturally curious and often they just don't know how to start or where to get started.

Nic (27:53)

I can definitely see there is obviously a challenge with most organisations now not really being... I think it's more an understanding of how to support neurodivergent individuals as opposed to an unwillingness to support

But it's something that is, I think, starting to get more limelight shined on it, ⁓ be it through the different neurodiversity programs and awareness weeks that are being raised right across the globe. But definitely still a big challenge.

I'm curious, you obviously have people that you've worked with in the past, what would you say to someone that has unrelenting high standards?

Ani (28:32)

Good question. Well, firstly, I would say what's driving those?

because if you know what's driving those high standards, then you can, you you have the option to be able to do something about it. A lot of time it's because we were undiagnosed earlier in life and we may have been praised for being quite intelligent. And every time we were more authentically ourselves, we would get criticized for our neurodivergent behaviors. And so that can result in us

I guess over indexing on trying to make everything perfect and demonstrating our intelligence all the time.

So when we know what those drivers are, then we can start to unpack things and we need to learn what is good enough. And if we haven't defined what good enough is, then we're always going to default to what we naturally think it should be. And sometimes that might be, you know, being very specific and starting to write these things down and practicing skills like the 80-20 rule, which I'm sure you've heard of, but these are things that it sounds so easy.

but they're a little bit more difficult to put into practice, especially if your brain and your nervous system doesn't want to do it. So you don't want to force yourself to do it, you want to find ways to make that easeful.

Nic (29:47)

very sound advice. I've looked at multiple different things myself I do have those unrelenting high standards unfortunately. One thing I'm currently trying at the moment is get things done and having like a task list that I kind of review at the end of every week and for the next following week with deadlines and everything else. It works to a degree but I'm still needing to adjust it think a little bit.

more myself. Jumping back just on before I jumped into that question, I guess the you also made mention obviously with neurodivergent people being in roles that may require you know more talking with someone that say autistic for example.

And being in those roles as you said, if you don't have the accommodations in place that can lead to serious burnout or their battery is just being completely depleted at the end of the day and they're just not sure why or they're slightly more aware because they have been diagnosed. How do we support individuals to ensure that they're not rolling into that constant flow of burnout?

Ani (30:50)

Hmm. Well, I mean that's a very big question because also everyone's burnout is different and the triggers of that burnout but if it is resulting from lots of social interaction I would be encouraging people to figure out how to build transition times into their day, into their schedule. Possibly having...

having some scripts because if we are having to do the socials, then if we're having to make small talk with people to do that in a way that doesn't drain us, that's a skill that we may have to learn. Like how do you develop a sense of curiosity?

in the process of doing small talk so it doesn't feel like such a challenging chore. That might be easier said than done because some people just really, really struggle with it. But again, kind of tapping into those strengths. When we leverage the strengths of that person to try and build the right strategies, then we can find at least some sort of adjustments to how people can do things so that the impact is not so severe.

I would encourage people to take more breaks if that's the reality and again I know that's so easy to say but when we don't have very clear boundaries on what we need to be at our best then often if our calendar is at the whim of whoever pops a meeting invite in there then we often don't have a way to pace ourselves through those social interactions.

Nic (32:16)

No, very, very true. So then reflecting now on how we could best ensure that neurodivergent staff are being supported, what advice would you be giving leaders on supporting neurodivergent individuals?

Ani (32:29)

I think this is advice for how to support anyone really and it is about coaching the person and not their problem. So when I see a manager often they try to

tell someone how to do things. And if you're neurodivergent, your brain is probably working a little bit different. We often may need to be very clear on the why of things rather than just the steps and the outcomes. And so I really focus on coaching people, not their problems. Because when you are telling someone how to do something, especially if they have any sort of demand avoidance, that's not going to have a successful outcome.

I'm sure you've got your divergent kids, you probably know a little bit about demand avoidance. But when I help my clients to unlock their natural processing style and ask them questions that they can then use to coach themselves.

There's that phrase, give a man to fish, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. So the way that I coach people is to give them the skills to be able to coach themselves afterwards, how to solve their own problems. So I don't tell my clients what to do. I ask them questions to help them to understand their problems and to help them figure out what they believe will work for them.

Coaching is very different to management, leadership or mentorship.

And the questions that I focus on are the what, the who, the how, the when, but not the why. Because if you ask someone, why did you do this or why didn't you do that, they can often feel really judged. But when you ask someone a question like, what is it about this outcome that you think should be different, that gets them to think about it rather than help them to feel judged.

So really I help them to unlock their potential. A coach is about giving people a way to question their own thoughts and what's going on for them to reflect and then to experiment rather than giving advice. And if a coach already is thinking about the solution,

It's so interesting. Like if you are solution focused in a coaching session, that session is never as successful as completely detaching yourself from that potential outcome and just helping your client get to where they need to go. So I help my clients.

Figure out what are the new habits that they want to do. What is the capacity that they have and how do we potentially expand that. But also knowing that sometimes there are things that are going to be challenging or may not be possible and that's okay. So it's not about fixing someone or telling someone how to do something in a specific way. It's about helping them and enabling them to show up fully as their selves.

So I think I would say to managers, don't shy away from emotions because when the brain can't communicate for whatever reason is happening, could be that they are just very, very stressed, the emotions will give us signals. And I know in the corporate world, we really try to shy away from emotions because that's not professional. But when you are late diagnosed neurodivergent, you

have probably suppressed your emotions a lot of your life and when we tap into those emotions and start to figure out what's behind them then we can start to figure out okay what is actually going on and what it is that you need help rather than trying to okay we've seen the emotion let's just push past and just move on and ignore it

Nic (36:08)

Very well said. guess just to reiterate there what Ani was saying, there is a very big difference between obviously a coach who's doing what Ani's doing and what a mentor does. So a mentor typically shares their experience and gives you advice on what you potentially should do in a scenario. Whereas as Ani described, a coach will guide the individual through their own thoughts to ensure that they're set up to be able

to succeed in participating and actioning those outcomes based on that conversation as well.

Ani (36:45)

Yeah, if I can expand on that. Management is where you are telling, often you're telling people what to do. Leadership is where you are setting a vision and helping people to get there. And mentorship is where you're sharing your own experiences about what's worked and what hasn't for you. Whereas coaching is about asking questions to help people get to their own solutions.

Nic (37:08)

perfectly said. So then jumping into what say a person that who is neurodivergent that is listening and is struggling at work, what's something that you want them to hear today?

Ani (37:20)

Well, you're not broken. There's nothing wrong with the way that your brain works. It is just different. And if you're struggling at work, that's not a moral or ethical failing. It just means that your environment isn't set up in a way that matches your strengths or supports your needs. That's not a personal flaw. That could be a mismatch. It could be that you actually just need some supports right now.

And the most powerful shift I see in my clients is where they start to let go of shame and stop trying to push through in neurotypical ways. Instead, they start to explore what actually works for them. Maybe it is that they need to structure their to-do list in a different way to what their manager has said that they need to do. Maybe it's about creating sensory friendly breaks. Maybe it is about asking for an adjustment that makes your whole job more sustainable.

or giving yourself your own accommodations because the easiest accommodations to get are the ones that you start by giving yourself. So if you take away one thing I would say you deserve to work in a way that allows you to thrive not just survive and it is possible because there are small changes that can unlock a lot of energy and you don't have to do it all alone.

Nic (38:32)

so well said. So turning over the mic to you then. I'd love to give my, guests the opportunity to ask me a question. Is there something that you have to ask me today?

Ani (38:43)

Yeah,

well I saw on your LinkedIn that you have been a co-chair of a corporate neurodiversity employee resource group. What's one of your main learnings that you've had in that role?

Nic (38:54)

Yeah, so I started the Neurodiversity Resource Group a few years ago now. I guess the main learning that I'm slowly taking away is that we can't change the world in a day. It's going to take time and it's going to take effort. And I guess the other challenge is that you need to ensure that there is willingness to buy into that change at the same time.

So we've definitely seen a great shift in people starting to feel psychologically safe with the Neurodivergence, with the resource group in play. And we've now got a community on our intranet as well to share stories, share information and share awareness days that are coming up throughout the year to give them the ability to...

be aware, to learn, to ask questions, to feel safe and to know that there are people here within the organization to continue to feel that way and know that there are the people here that are wanting to make a difference and make that shift within their space as well.

Ani (39:55)

Can I ask another question?

Nic (39:57)

Absolutely.

Ani (39:59)

What about to corporates? Let's say there's a senior leader or HR teams that are thinking maybe we should set up an ERG for neurodiversity. What should they know?

Nic (40:12)

I guess the first thing I would say there would be make sure that you have someone that is neurodivergent participating or co-chairing the neurodiversity group. It shouldn't be being run by someone that isn't neurodivergent or at least one of the members isn't neurodivergent so that you have that lived experience as a part of the change that you're trying to make.

Ani (40:34)

Yeah, nothing, what is it, nothing for us without us? Yeah.

Nic (40:38)

Exactly right. Exactly right.

Ani (40:42)

And if you think about the culture of work in Australia, where do you see the opportunities for change around neurodiversity?

Nic (40:51)

tough one. So the culture here in Australia, I mean it is changing to a degree. I guess that there are a couple of industries now that are forcing people to go back into the office, which concerns me a lot with respect to accommodations that are going to be available for neurodivergent staff.

Because being able to work from home is probably one of the greatest opportunities for someone that's, say, autistic that needs that quiet space to be able to focus and deliver their work.

However, there are those that are say, AuDHD or ADHD that would prefer the controlled chaos that is an office and an open plan for the space to work. I'm certainly not one of those people. I have to have either my loops or noise cancelling headphones in most of the time when I'm in the office because it's just far too noisy now, especially after working from home for the last six years. But I think, yeah, I think if we can...

ensure that you know the industries that are do have that ability to provide people the accommodations of working from home or working from where they're most productive it doesn't necessarily need to be from home and enabling our staff or anyone to be able to be their authentic selves I think you'll get a lot more out of an individual as opposed to trying to shoehorn them into being

you the mold that you expect them to be.

So Ani, is there anything that you'd love to leave our listeners with? A thought, a challenge, or a piece of encouragement?

Ani (42:19)

Well, it takes a lot of energy to try and present yourself as a perfect neurotypical at work, which you're not by the way because you're not neurotypical. But if work felt safe enough for you to show up fully as yourself, what would you be doing more of? That's my question though. I'll leave the listeners with.

Nic (42:41)

Ani, thank you very, very much for your time today and joining me here on the Inclusive Shift. If you'd love to learn more about Ani and her coaching practice, I will share that in the notes of the show. And as always, thank you for joining me on the Inclusive Shift.

Ani (42:57)

Thanks for having me.